A South African Christian arts academy in Bloemfontein may be breaking the law by advertising that it can “cure” homosexual students, and that if a homosexual refuses such, they can be expelled.
By Melanie Nathan, January 13, 2012.
The Sunday Times reported that the Creare Training Centre’s prospectus claimed it could convert gay students into heterosexuals through “rehabilitation”. Gay rights activists had slammed this as “tragic, shameful and deeply hurtful”, according to the report.
Creare founder Cornelius can Heyningen denied that the institution was discriminatory.
“We are catering for those who say ‘I want to change as a homosexual’. That’s not saying no homosexuals are allowed.”
Comparing the academy’s stance on homosexuality to a drug rehabilitation program contradicts Heyningen’s claims. Unlike the U.S.A., South Africa has a Constitution that fully entrenches equality based on sexual orientation and gender identity. Hence a remark suggesting any form of sexuality can be cured is tantamount to saying “one can be cured from being white or black.” What these people such as Heyningen do not realize is that being gay is the same as being left handed, having blue eyes or being black or white.
The question becomes what is Heyningen’s motivation for this cure offer? Is it intolerance of LGBTI people? In any event upon reading the Prospectus itself, the academy’s claims may be found to be illegal under the terms of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act of 2006.
In Viewing the 2013 prospectus I found this blatant discriminatory statement that further contradicts the assertions of Heyningen, where he states that if a gay or lesbian person refuses to be “descipled to” (implying attempt at cure or change of sexuality) then that person will not be permitted to continue their studies.
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According to the Statement of Faith in the Constitution of Creare training Centre, we believe in the principle of relationship fundamental to personal sexual orientation being founded on that of heterosexuality. Therefore any person wanting to pursue a lifestyle contrary and is not willing to be discipled in this regard, will not be permitted to continue further studies or lecture. We offer ministry to help people that want to change their sexual orientation A.E Homosexuality & Lesbianism to heterosexuality.”
Not only is this blatant discrimination under the South African Law but worse is Heyningen’s assertion that Gays can be cured. It is a myth and quackery to assert such claims, whether done in the name of a Bible, God or therapy. The American Psychiatric Association refers to the great dangers of these types of assertions: “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient.”
See relevant excerpts from the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act of 2006.-https://oblogdeeoblogda.me/south-africa-promotion-of-equality-act/
UPDATED 1/19/2013 – MINISTRY OF JUSTICE ASKS SAHRC TO PROBE CREARE TARINING CENTER
- (See screenshot of Prospectus)
UPDATED 1/16/2013:
PROOF POSITIVE FOR YOU COMMENTATORS WHO SAY THAT CREARE IS NOT OFFERING CURES:-
1. A letter sent to Queerlife South Africa shows that the comments below by friends of Creare are false and that they are trying to squirm around words. In fact gays are being discriminated against and quackery is being used to try and cure gays of their homosexuality, the latter being not only impossible but highly offensive and dangerous.
Here is a letter sent to Queerlife by a reader:
By Uhann Yssel
“I attended Creare Training Centre Bloemfontein from 2007-2009 part time.
In 2008 when I came out to friends and family I was confronted by the leadership of Creare Training Centre.
In a meeting with Peter And Clifton Jones I was told that I am in fact not gay, but possessed by a gay demonic spirit and that I could be cured by what is called “deliverance therapy” i.e. Exorcism.
I laughed at the Idea and was then told that if I carry on being gay I will not live long as this will result in alcohol and drug abuse which will lead to promiscuity and illness resulting in early death.
I thanked the leadership for their concern but expressed that I don’t agree with their view and was asked to officially inform them of my intent to leave the training centre.
I was also told that after my departure my absence was questioned by friends and other students at the centre but according to many the subject was taboo.
I was hurt and appalled by their behaviour but moved on. Today I am 21 years old and a business manager for Hyundai Motoring South Africa with a healthy social life and a family that supports every life decision I make.
I am today a happier person because I know this is how I was made and meant to be. There is no cure for homosexuality because it is not a disease. I only fear that many families and individuals could be hurt by the training centre trying to cure people who are not sick.
This is tragic and I just hope others in the homosexual community have the strength to stand up against this kind of discrimination and help our gay brothers and sisters to accept who they are and live healthy and happy lives.”
2 This lesbian is claiming that Creare cured her. And let me add, this lesbian is not cured, she has been subjected to shaming and pressure by Christian Fundamentalism. There is no such thing as a cure and no such thing as ex-gay. Every ex-gay OI know has b=reverted to their natural born orientation. Time will tell for this shamed young woman.
I find it ironic that most African countries can’t even feed and/or clothe their own citizens and yet have time on their hands to worry about anything gay or GLBTQIA!!! I would withdraw all financial and humane support from our country to theirs and see how long they last. I would imagine that last thing the faux clergy would ask them on their deathbeds would be, “Are you gay or straight?” These retardant christians are mind-boggling!
good point
Have you perhaps been to South Africa? Creare Training Centre does much more than many people for this country and others.
Nowhere, not once was the word “cure” used by anyone affiliated the training centre… Inaccurate journalism at its best.
I am South African, buddy! Live in San Francisco! I practiced law in South Africa, went to WITS. I know and love South Africa, hence my continued advocacy, post apartheid, for all its good people. NO the word cURE is not there, but so what. Do you mean you have to say cure? We are talking discrimination and the blatant implication that homosexuals can be cured. It is saying you have to accept ministry (for what? if not cure?) so that you can remain on in the school – and if you are homosexual you cant stay at the school. So what does “ministry mean” as a precursor to staying there – if they dont allow homosexuals. Please dont presume me and others stupid! Of course this refers to “cure”.
I have just been on our SECOND gay national bus tour in S. Africa, and we ONLY EVER experience hate and homophobia in Bloemfontein. At your Mall (Mimosa mall) a security guard asked one of our trans gendered persons if she had a license to dress LIKE THAT. What is wrong with BLOEM???? Seriously! (we talked about this on 702 a few months ago)
Henry…I doubt if it is Bloemfontein as such but more a lack of education and upbringing with certain people…either that or they get the news much later than the rest of us!
Creare serves a narrow fundamentalist Christian community of bigots. It does NO good for the vast majority of South Africans, and it certainly does NO good to lesbians and homosexuals. (Proud South African homosexual)
What Christians don’t seem to understand is that they have no right whatsoever of applying Christian rules and beliefs to non Christians. While Christians may choose to believe that the Bible is their god’s word, non-christians have no reason to believe it or to follow it. No religion has any right to enforce its rules on others, regardless of what they think or believe.
Nevertheless it makes impossible promises on converting gay people to being straight. Just as much fraud as trying to claim to turn a black person white. Fraud remains fraud. Fraud in the name of religion, is still fraud.
I hope you revisited this page because you can see you are DEAD wrong as people both for and against the issue have spoke out that Creare provided so called cures – or be cured or leave! The woman claiming above in the update to be cured of being a lesbian is anonymous. The man who claims he would not be cured and remains an OUT homosexual is not afraid to state his name. Curious is it not?
With all due respect, Sir, your comments shows how lost you are. You need to find the God of the Bible, and I pray do. If you die without Him, you and your money will be lost. God Bless.
South African, Bride of Jesus Christ!
LOL, well my friend “Bride of Christ” I think there is a place for you in this world – the “live” one as we know it. I think there is a place for me too- however you dont seem to to agree. As for the after life. Well none of us truly know what is in store for us – so many of us have different beliefs and religions – and I see nothing to yet to prove whose is true – which means that truth remains unto oneself alone and common belief is mere conjecture – for now – until we die and know for sure… as I said – speculation AND THAT said, to the best of my knowledge I dont think I am going to need any money where I am going -so I am willing to die without”HIM” and take a change on small change only.
I can’t see any mention of a “cure” in the prospectus… In accusing this institution of discrimination and violating gay rights, you are violating their freedom of religion. They simply offer an alternative to homosexuality based on their beliefs. No body is forcing homosexuals to attend a training center that holds different beliefs to theirs… How is that discriminatory?
Read ti again. Go to the screen shot and teh quote. It says that if you are gay and you do not agree to ministering (i.e. cure ) then you will not be allowed to continue your studies. How much clearer do you want this than how they said it in veiled religious terminology. I have been in this form of activism for long enough to know what this all means. Here is the wording in the prospectus – “Therefore any person wanting to pursue a lifestyle contrary and is not willing to be discipled in this regard, will not be permitted to continue further studies or lecture. We offer ministry to help people that want to change their sexual orientation A.E Homosexuality & Lesbianism to heterosexuality.” COULD not be clearer than that Kovsiekind…. As for freedom of religion – this is a school not a church!
My point is, who in their right minds would send their children, yea, want their children in a school such as this? This is not a school, it is an indoctrination center with some VERY bad people in charge!
@Kovsiekind you are right.
All the information about RULES are for people who CHOOSE agree to abide by them as part of a FULL-TIME DISCIPLESHIP PROGRAM. No single person has ever been forced to comply with any of the RULES that people are claiming to be against human rights…
Imagine if i were to visit the USA and were forced to vote for Obama? instead I would have to be a citizen and then its my duty to vote, based on who I want as president – not just Obama. Or i can be passive and not vote… like so many.
In Creare it’s the same, if you are part of that full-time discipleship program then you have rules that you have AGREED to live by in that program.
Every one of these students SIGNS that agreement and knows the rules fully before committing to the program.
If you don’t agree then you speak to the leadership about it. And if there is no common ground then you are welcome to leave – but YOU AGREE to do something before you commit. Creare has never forced anyone to change religion, sex or otherwise to before participating in a program – if you don’t agree then you just don’t do.
Thats fine Patrick, but dont offer to “cure” and stop shaming people with Christinaity as your tool. There is a much better way to make rules. You could have said in the prospectus: ” we will not tolerate sexual behavior by heterosexual or homosexual students.” PERIOD! No discrimination…. instead it says via very overt clear implication, and in essence this message: ‘Heterosexuals are allowed, homosexuals are not allowed unless you agree to be ministered to for (IMPLIED CURE) a change in your sexuality.’
Good point Patrick, but unfortunately that’s not what I understand. There seems to be loads of contradiction in this. They might not used the word “Cure” and I see you refer to “RULES are for people who CHOOSE agree to abide by them as part of a FULL-TIME DISCIPLESHIP PROGRAM.” Really man, whats the difference?
You just twisting the words. Its like the devil in sheep clothing.
WHY CHANGING IT IF THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT?
No. Its UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Imagine I ran a company that prevented white Afrikaners to join, Jews, people with disabilities. Same principal….
Still based on the false idea that sexual orientation can be changed. . Now a bi-sexual might be able to pass back and forth, but a straight and person and a gay person are going to be what they are.
HERE IS THE MESSAGE I left on Oxford University Student news re their article about Angels in America which is being shown at a debate that hatemonger Pastor Scott Lively has been chosen to talk at in the UK:
“For years here in the USA we have fought the anti-LGBTQI rhetoric and actions of Scott Lively, the man who is now being sued by Uganda’s LGBTI community in a MA Courts in the U.S.A. for inciting the Kill the Gays Bill and the resulting persecution against Gays in Uganda.
We have fought to silence his hateful rhetoric. Imagine our horror when we saw that HE is a guest of prestigious Oxford Union. See this article for a better explanation of our upset of this choice…..
While I had hoped he would be uninvited, I now realize that libel and hate speech laws are tighter in UK than in USA and so Lively is going to have to watch his mouth. In fact I hope that many of your readers show up to greet Lively so he can see just how hateful hos work is considered by all around the globe….
https://oblogdeeoblogda.me/2013/01/11/hatemonger-scott-lively-invited-to-debate-gay-rights-at-prestigious-oxford-union/“
I see your point of view, Melanie and Dakotahgeo, but I want to make a few points: This is a tertiary institution, so those who wish to attend this training center do so completely at their own discretion and free will. If you have no desire to live by and be taught by Biblical principles, then there is no reason to come to this school. If they don’t want to change or believe that they cannot be changed, then Creare is not the place for them. Who would attend the school knowing that they will not be allowed further studies should they wish to practice homosexuality? If you know what they stand for, then why oppose and get offended when asked to leave? Secondly, this training center is advertised as a Christian organisation that works under a church, so they do in fact have the right to dismiss a student who does not wish to comply with their beliefs. That is exactly the same in any company, university, or any other educational institution (for reasons other than for their sexual orientation of course).
PS
Do you see any Christian going to court or to the newspapers with hate speech charges for being called, quote “retardant” ? Be honest, have Christians done nothing in this world worthy of thanks?
I apologize on behalf of every Christian who has made you or any homosexual feel unloved by Jesus, because He does love you and believes in you, even if you don’t believe in Him. We believe what the Bible says concerning sexuality… Look deeper than thoughts of discrimination…
AC=ctually you are correct. Most gay people would not want to go to a place where they are unwelcome. However this is NOT a church and that is where religion is practiced not in tertiary Institutions. They can omit the discriminatory information and the same out come would occur – most gays would probably not want to go there anyway. AND why exclude gays there are plenty of gay Christians so they are being discriminatory amongst Christians too. That all said, Kovalekind you fall prey to the same misnomer that invites such discrimination in this your comment. Allow me to explain – you say “that they will not be allowed further studies should they wish to practice homosexuality?” Homosexuality IS NOT A PRACTICE – tell me is heterosexuality a practice? No both forms of sexuality are a way of being. Are blue eyes a practice? That is where Christian fundamentalists don’t get it and that is why Christian fundamentalists mistakenly exclude gays.
The Bible should not be interpreted literally. It ought to be seen as an evolving document. There is plenty of support for the notion that interpretation of Biblical passages can support same-sex relationships. All those who rely on so called anti-homosexuality passages – fail to note that nowhere does the Bible pronounce against loving same-sex relations. All refs are in context of war, idolatory and/or rape
Melanie, Creare is about implementing the Bible accurately because it is submitted to a church for oversight and the Christian perspective concerning everything including relationships. Creare has the right to do so. If people don’t like that approach then they don’t have to attend.
Isn’t that clear?
Exactly clear and it did not need the anti-homosexuality clause in its perspective to say it. Everyone who is gay knows they are not going to go to Christian place and flaunt their sexuality. No they do not have the RIGHT because if they did ten you would not have LAW that prevents this and calls their actions illegal. They need to keep their religion to their churches where no one will interfere in it,. If they want a school OF ARTS based on Christianity then make it a Church school and limit it to members of the Church. Then people will have to join the church with church values ascribed and all the GAYS will know they are not welcome. Do not discriminate – plain and simple and do not lie that yu can cure whether by implication or otherwise. No one is stopping freedom of religion, but we are asking that your religion stop instilling shame into our youngsters which leads to suicide. Bible can be implemented in Church not in schools that invite public participation. Sorry . there is not such thing as Absolute Biblical interpretation either, but that is another argument.
I would just like to inform that the times live reporter did not contact this school again after he said he would phone back.He published the article out of his own interpretation if the one sentence instead of phoning back and having a proper interview.
Second:The centre NEVER said the words :”WE CURE Homosexuality” they give an option to study the set courses if the person wants to change there lifestyle.Drugs,alcohol abuse,womaniser etc.
Please read the following it is the most accurate article so far:
http://ewn.co.za/2013/01/15/We-only-help-gays-who-want-to-convert
You may also read this article:
http://www.timeslive.co.za/ilive/2013/01/16/i-was-cured-of-homosexuality-at-bloemfontein-training-centre-ilive?fb_source=ticker&fb_action_ids=10200355486830189&fb_action_types=og.recommends
It’s all about choice,no-one is forcing or claiming any type of cure.
@kovsie kind_I agree with you
Well to the person who said you never said “cure” here it is – THEY ARE SPEAKING ABOUT CURE…. Clearly this comment is from a person who is associated with the school. He has inside information about the non telephone call. No one needed to call back! The prospectus speaks for itself. Look at my screen shot, which I took directly off the online Petition. and it is VERY CLEAR… So stop trying to squirm your way around it with nonsense about reporters acalling back. The reporter was under no obligation to call back and give any more of an interview. The prospectus speaks for itself. I would be glad to give Mr H. the interview myself. He can reach me on skype at Melanie Nathan, San Francisco or he can e-mail me at . This article is getting a lot of hits and I would be glad to update it with an interview from him.
Using the word CURE has no relevance it is clearly implied. Give me a break!
YOU CANNOT CONVERT GAYS and so “We-only-help-gays-who-want-to-convert” is a load of nonsense. There is NO truth in that!
Well said Kovsiekind
I read you article. I’ve never heard of Scott Lively, but the guy seems to be quite extreme. I assure you, that what he teaches and lives is not the Word of God that I or Creare teach and encourage. We have nothing to do with him or his campaigns…
Then you should speak out against people like him, because his view has shaped Ugandan and other African sentiment about homosexuality.
I woke up this morning and realized that I don’t want to argue. What I do want to say, though is that I personally know the leaders of the school, and they are some of the most amazing people I’ve ever met. BUT, come to think of it, I do not actually agree from a Christian point of view that homosexuals should not be allowed to further their studies should they wish to be non-heterosexual. Where else should they go then?
On whether homosexuality is normal and a part of a person’s being, depends on your attitude towards the Bible. Is it an evolving document, or the supreme Word of God that will never change and adapt to human philosophy? Your interpretation will determine your response.
Thank you for allowing me to participate in this discussion. Please know that I do not believe that being gay is approved by God, just like any other sin you can think of is disapproved. And if being judgmental is the first other sin that came to mind, then please know that Jesus took our judgement on the cross. All we must do now is desire to please Him and be holy, for He is holy! So there is no judgement from my side, just a desire for people to know the One who loves them with an everlasting love…
May you encounter God in His kindness today!
I appreciate your viewpoint and that you were able to come on this site and share it cordially as so many are unable to do. Of course having the conversation is critical, especially in the lives of those who are “shamed” by religion and given false assertions that they can be cured. This is not possible and so shaming and false hope leads often to suicide. The attitude of this school, in rejecting homosexuals, especially such young people, perp[etuates shame and hence suicide. The idea of a Constitution is to protect citizens and so SA is trying! Unfortunately the people cannot keep up!
That said “On whether homosexuality is normal and a part of a person’s being, depends on your attitude towards the Bible. ” NO homosexuality as normal depends on science and NOT on interpretation of the Bible. However Evangelicals have inserted Bible into the lives of people who may jot even be part of their faith.
The Bible never calls homosexual love a sin. It refers in LEV 18 to man laying with man being an abomination and that is done in the context of WAR, RAPE and idolatory. But nowhere does it speak of love. Being gay is NOT sodomy, Sodomy is a choice sexual act that either straight or gay people can do. If the Bible is perceived as an evolving document, then G-d certainly has provided for gays to procreate because now we can go to sperm banks or get together with opposite sex friends to share egg and sperm and surrogacy so we can procreate in manners that we choose.
All said and done, Evangelical interpret about Bible does not work in the modern world and it seems that if you do believe in G-d, that G-d has indeed created and provided! Not to mention the millions of children around he world who need to be adopted and fostered.!
Hello,
First of all, I totally agree with Kovsiekind. The pastor never claimed to be able to “cure” homosexuality! Rather refer to this article that is much more accurate than the Sunday times one that deliberately twisted the words of the pastor.
http://ewn.co.za/2013/01/15/We-only-help-gays-who-want-to-convert
Secondly, we cannot deny that some people do not accept their homosexuality, and have the desire to change, and a place like Creare training centre is a SAFE place to do so. See this article:
The pastor did not try to shock or hurt any one. Neither am I.
PLEASE I am not a Moron. The Prospectus is very clear. Didi you read it? It is here very clear in my article, including the screen shot to prove it: It says to stay in the program you need to agree to be ministered to (implied to cure you) of you homosexuality……. BECAUSE the next sentence says if you ARE a homosexual you will be removed from the program. So what are they implying that the “ministering” can do if not cure? Give me a break. But that is not the issue. The issue even greater is the fact that Gays are unwelcome by these so called loving Christians unless they become straight- which is physiologically and psychologically impossible. I have studied this issue for years and years. What Creare is doing is shaming youth who are GAY and sitting in Judgment of homosexuality. I wonder if they serve bacon on campus for breakfast. The Bible I read says eating PORK is an abomination! In no uncertain terms – whereas man laying with man is an abomination only in the context of idol worship, war and rape…..
While Christians have this curious idea of the fall of man, as though perfect human beings could become imperfect, I would suggest instead that we are created exactly as the god intends, complete with our strengths and our weaknesses in order to learn the lessons that our lives will bring to us. Most of our unhappiness comes from trying to be something that we are not, instead of trying to discover what we are and moving on from that. It only took me fifty years to learn that but once I understood that I became a much more cheerful and happy person.
I also agree with Kovsiekind and Patrick!
Hi, just for interest sake, please read a statement submitted by an ex-homosexual to Times Live
http://www.timeslive.co.za/ilive/2013/01/16/i-was-cured-of-homosexuality-at-bloemfontein-training-centre-ilive?fb_source=ticker&fb_action_ids=10200355486830189&fb_action_types=og.recommends
Also, the article on this blog is so biased, my word. I take it that the writer did not have an interview with this pastor or possibly only writes from here-say or to try and get attention. I am however very impressed by the article as written on the same matter by “eye witness news”.
http://ewn.co.za/2013/01/15/We-only-help-gays-who-want-to-convert
Reading this article from Eye Witness makes even me understand the heart of it all and I also feel that people who want to give a shot at changing should have a place to go to.
Well c;early Ceare has mustered up the forces to respond to my “biased” article. I am on the side of the fence that has watched Christians kick their children out of their hiomes and then reported on those same kids committing suicide. They were promised ministry and it did not help change their natural born sexual orientation so they killed themselves! I have attended the funerals. These are kids who are given false promises about being “saved” from homosexuality. “ministered” “Cured” no difference. I am a blogger and a human rights defender and a gay rights advocate. Of course I am biased and of course I taker blogger’s license . This BLOG is a platform for my advocacy. I am delighted that all the Craere supporters have come on and commented. Therein lies the balance I allow because I do moderate comments. I have allowed every single comment on this post to appear and have only taken down the one that was a death threat to me. (MMM that was a nice Christian!) ANyway You are all welcome to comment, including MR H. Himself! So yes its biased and yes you have a forum to oppose my view. You are all very welcome.
There are many ex- homosexuals. They are delusional to think it actually works. It is proven quackery! People are pressured by pastors and family alike. I have seen hundreds of so called ex-homosexuals unable to sustain the BS of their new Ex-Gay designation and are soon back in gay relationships. So sorry these types of statements are meaningless to me and are pure pressure induced! These people crave redemption from a cruel society and unfortunately it is the Fundamentalist Christians who perpetuate the shame.
We were BORN THIS WAY HONEY. You CAN’T CHANGE (yes, you can lie to yourself and to the poor girl your are going to marry…)
dakotahgeo, in response to your question, “who in their right minds would send their children, yea, want their children in a school such as this?” Sadly, there are far too many parents that would send their children to such a place. You see, while I am fortunate to come from a loving and supportive family, I have dated men who in the past who are not so lucky. In South Africa, a gay son or lesbian daughter is seen by some parents as an embarrassment; something for which they, the parents, should be ashamed, especially in, but not limited to, fundamentalist white Afrikaans families, where a good, wholesome, Christian upbringing is a cornerstone of family life, church-involvement is non-negotiable and the father rules the family with an iron fist (sadly, far too often this is not just a figure of speech) and black families where, as with their white counterparts, the father is not to be challenged but with the added misconception that homosexuality is “un-African”, brought to the continent by white Colonialists. These are the kinds of families you find in Bloemfontein, where this institution is situated and, should parents notice that their son is a little too “limp-wristed” or their daughter a little too “tomboyish” for their liking, the son/daughter, usually, will have very little to no input in choosing which school he/she will be attending. After all, “What Dad says, goes, no exceptions!” and “My house, my rules” are non-negotiable ground rules in most South African homes. So, institutions such as this needs to be spoken out against in the strongest possible terms.
As for you, Kovsiekind, I’m afraid I cannot agree with you, at all. Your comment, “those who wish to attend this training center do so completely at their own discretion and free will” is not necessaily correct, as I have illustrated above. Students that would go to this institution may have been sent there to fix what parents see as a failure on their part to “correct” or “cure”. I’m sorry if you are so blinded by your faith that you cannot see that religion (and I am not only talking about Christianity, here… but, unfortunately, it certainly does lead the pack, complete with flaming torches and pitchforks) relentlessly persecutes homosexuality and the the approach that proves most successful is the “Think of the children”!
Let’s hope that more parents will learn to be like mine, where my mother even attended my wedding to a man, but I don’t see that happening any time soon
Everyone has got very strong opinions concerning this whole issue, so I don’t really wish to use this website to defend my faith, the Bible or my God. He is called God for a reason… But I guess I do have to leave some food for thought.
I stand firm on my belief that homosexuality is not God’s perfect plan for people’s lives. I believe all people are heterosexual at birth and that they turn gay through believing the lies that they’ve been told and accepting them as truth. (IE. I was born this way). I do not believe that being gay has been scientifically proven by enough unbiased professionals, and that it cannot be accepted as fact. The law of gravity can be accepted as a fact because it has been proven and you don’t need a degree in physics to understand that if you drop a pen, then it will fall to the ground. Of course gay people reading this want to punch me in the face right now, but like I told Melanie, your interpretation of the Bible will determine your response to it. So if you do not believe that the Bible is the Holy Word of God, then you will not respond to it at all. If you believe its an evolving document that should not be taken literally, then you will respond to issues like homosexuality in a way that will always gratify your body and emotions; you will take the good about heaven, and leave the uncomfortable (yet very rewarding) texts about living holy lives to please a holy God.
So… Do I believe that homosexuals should be dismissed from the school if they do not wish to receive ministry? No.
Do I believe they can change? Only by the Truth of the Living Word of God, and that is what Creare is offering. If you do not believe that, then don’t go there. If you are forced to go there, then its a matter to be discussed with your family,not with Creare.
Belief, is a matter of opinion. The fact that you or I believe something does not in any way prove that it is true or factual. The fact that you believe that the Bible is the world of God is matter of opinion as well and does not prove anything about the Bible in fact. You are entitled to have an opinion and to
have an belief. but your belief and your claim proves nothing in and of itself.
Despite years of religious arguments that i have seen, I have come to the conclusion that most people go home with the same beliefs that they came in with. in most cases those that are converted do so only because they have no strong beliefs. This of course makes most of the religious arguments of little value, and mostly a matter of making noise.
By the way, I would disagree that disagreeing with any religion or holy book is in fact an attack. Considering the long history of Christianity attacking other religions and destroying them, if possible, I find such a claim of attack highly hypocritical.
Homosuexuality is NOT defined as abnormal in the DSM iv (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and anyone suggesting to ‘cure’ us is in fact plaing GOD. This is not a Christian or religious matter (millions of Christians support us and are well-educated enough not to follow such beliefs)- but rather a denomination run by a nutcase or two. SURELY THIS IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL to prevent ANYONE from joining an organization……
Educated Christians do not claim that homosexuality is a mental disorder, but a combination of emotional and spiritual brokenness. Abnormal is not the right word either. What is normal any way?
I disagree educated Christians understand the Bible as an evolving document. Bacon can be cleaned hence its no longer an abomination.
Well said miss Nathan
There is no CURE to homosexuality because there is nothing to be cured or converted. It is an attribute of our being like left-handedness and eye color. I’m sure with enough fortitude someone can pray their way, or be electro-shocked, to a lonely life of self-hatred and self-denial as the supporters of reparative/conversion therapy’s success claim but I wonder whether that can still be called ‘a life’. Failure to CURE something that needs no curing leads to shame, depression, suicide, familial rejection, etc. Whatever happened to God is Love?
Also, what do you do with the student who enters believing themselves to be heterosexual but while at school learns otherwise? Toss them to the gutter as the parents who hear the nonsense about gays being damaged goods, evil, pedophiles, etc. from the pulpit every Sunday?
This is the same Bible that was used to justify slavery and Apartheid, no? How has that evolved? South African Christians have rejected biblical texts that have been used to justify and oppress black Africans, perhaps you can find it in your hearts to do the same here for another oppressed minority.
“We offer ministry to help people that want to change their sexual orientation A.E Homosexuality & Lesbianism to heterosexuality.”
The right to hold contrary opinions may indeed be protected under South Africa’s constitution, but this does not include the right to prejudice or discrimination. Offering “ministry” to “change” a persons sexual preference amounts to fraud!
I would like to see SARS revoke CREARE’s non-profit status on the grounds that said group uses said status to discriminate against lesbians and homosexuals. In fact, that is exactly what I and many others will be working toward. If you contravene the Bill of Rights, you have no right to non-profit status – period!
Agreed Damon. The Constitution is there to honor and respect all religions including atheism which is a persons’s right!
Well said Damon & Melanie! This kind of quackery and sheer hatred-filled nonsense is deeply disappointing to me, as a person of deep faith and as an out-and-proud homosexual male, living in modern day South Africa. I am certainly not a Christian, however: my spiritual conviction as a practising Hindu has actually saved my life from drug addiction, over twelve years ago (no relapse, and no medical intervention). I cannot help but shake my head sadly at this negative use of spirituality and religious beliefs, which is so frequently used to condemn human beings and to give the impression that God would actually be bothered by something so insignificant as our sexual proclivity. Surely the Divine Power has better things to do than to quibble over who we, as human beings, give our love to and as to whether their genitalia are the same as ours, or different…? This kind of practise is deeply insulting to me as a person who lives their life according to the moral guidelines of their religious and spiritual beliefs. It is (in my humble opinion) demeaning to God – who has created all of us exactly the way we are, be it black or white, straight or gay, and as unique individuals, with our own talents and individual tastes and perspectives. All I can say is that God does not make mistakes. In moments such as this, when I am confronted by this kind of negativity; I do my best to remember these words by the esteemed Icon and True, South African Hero, Mr. Nelson Mandela: “No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.” Hari Aum! Aum Shanti! Let peace, love and light rule over all!
It amazes me how Christians truly believe that theirs is the only worthy religion. I was born Jewish and will die Jewish and nothing will change that. I have studied other religions – including Christianity- and have the utmost respect for all, as long as they leave me to mine, in peace! More importantly I expect ALL religions including my own to keep out of my civil rights and my right to full equality under the law. Thank you Christopher and Damon for your comments.
Ironically the double standard is alive and well. SomeChristians feel that they have the right to say anything they want , even telling out and out lies about those they don’t like and press others to follow their rules even if not Christian, trying to enforce their way by law. If you disagree they will call you anti-Christian, hating Jesus and so forth.
OMG…. the sheep-people with their imaginary friend (jesus) are out gay bashing again. Scott Lively disciples and freaky followers!!! What ever next???
How absolutely pathetic has the christian society become that they need to advertise “gay curing” to enlist more “followers” who tithe 10% of their earnings to their “God”. This same “God” who is allegedly omnipotent… but somehow, always needs money.
It’s getting to the stage that I am starting to dislike all christians in general and that is a sad state of affairs for me. I believe TOLERANCE is what christians need MORE of.
Of course, it is in Bloem… where every “groot papa met ‘n skeef seun” would want to find a cure! But I guess I will be accused of “generalising” again. So sue me!
*sigh* All Big Book Religions need a serious dose of tolerance. I guess I shouldn’t christian bash! Stoning would be more appropriate.
While I can see where you are coming from with your post, I do think it may be a little harsh.
As a Spiritual Atheist, I do not believe in Higher Power but I do believe in a Higher Purpose. However, I don’t hold anybody’s believe in a Higher Power against them. What I take issue with is when those who believe in a Higher Power feel it is their “God-given” right to stand in judgement of others, in direct contradiction of the Rules of Engagement as set forth in their Rule Book (Matthew 7:1).
You see, while I am a Spiritual Atheist, I was raised as a Christian but I turned my back the church (not God) due to the bigotry of its members. It was only recently that I came to the realisation that there is no God. However, this did not change my believe in a spiritual path, spiritual growth and a need for acceptance of others, regardless of the nature of their spiritual path, who/what they choose to worship or whether they choose to worship at all.
What really tickles me, coming back to the bigotry of the Christian Church, is that, when I was growing up, I was taught that the Creator is infallible and this is something that I am told repeatedly by Christians. However, by saying to someone, “Thou art an abomination in the eyes of the Lord”, you are, in essence, saying, “The Big Guy screwed up… let me take you back to him so he can fix his mistake”, which flies in the face of their “the Creator is infallible” statement. So, while I may think your post was a little harsh, in particular your opening comments (“the sheep-people with their imaginary friend”), I do wish the Church would decide whether their deity is, in fact, perfect or not, because (and correct me if I am wrong here, Christians) Perfection doesn’t make mistakes and therefore nothing needs to be corrected, whether by personal choice or otherwise.
All of us want acceptance, and when we realise that people around us won’t like who we are, we want to change. Our FURY at these allegations are rooted in the fact, that we have tried EVERYTHING to change, but never could. Now some other young “innocent” is believing these lies that we were told…”You’re not good enough”
I WANT TO SCREAM FROM THE ROOFTOPS…..YOU ARE WONDERFUL JUST THE WAY YOU ARE!!
PLEASE Christians, listen to us. We live this every day.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT A STRAIGHT PERSON CAN TEACH A HOMOSEXUAL ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY!!
So sit down and listen to us. Learn from us.
Hi Melanie
Thanks for your answer, I appreciate. I did read your article and all the documents you posted. But I maintain that the pastor never claimed to “cure” homosexuality. Moreover, I would agree with you that the term is particularly controversial. Nevertheless, one who enroll in a Christian institution such as Creare, as a full time student comes to be discipled, and do have the choice to disclose or not his sexual orientation. If they do it, it is in a climate of trust and respect, and it is not in any way required before that.
Melanie, I respect your work. I am a believer, this is my first identity. I see homosexuals, heterosexuals or bisexuals as… Human beings! Who are loved and precious in the eyes of God. Yet, I will not turn a blind eye on what the Word of God clearly states concerning homosexuality. But that doesn’t imply that I would despise, hate or reject homosexuals. I mean, my faith is based on love, forgiveness and grace! I approach God just as I am, but as I come closer, I am changed, and transformed. The closer i come to Him, the more I realize that some things in my life, that i believed were part of me, are not right! It is He who convicted me of sin and righteousness or judgement. The bible doesn’t state that only homosexuals must change, “for ALL have sinned and fall short of god’s glory”. Rom 3.23.
Calling homosexuality a sin is not understanding the love between two people is NOT about sex. The Bible only decries sex between man and man in war and rape. It does not speak to same-sex love anywhere. It calls for procreation in the context of what was at the time a possibility – between man and a woman. But now things have changed and woman and woman can procreate as can man and man, given modern science. Hence it is proven that the Bible is expected to evolve in its interpretation.
With all due respect, Melanie, you are an activist and lawyer by profession, not a theologian… You are miss interpreting the Bible.
With all due respect Kovsiekind I have been a student of Torah for 30 years and have majored in Biblical studies. I have researched the topic as a constant, reading everything imaginable, including the book Holy Terror by Mel White – which you have clearly not read- and others, I am currently co-producing a film called GAY USA the Movie – where we have researched and interviewed theologians and others re the topic in great detail. So please dont tell me what i know or do not know. These pages are not the place to determine whether or not I have enough theology to answer you on the topic. That said, I am keenly interested in separating CHURCH from STATE and affording sexuality its place in civil society – out of the bounds of theology. Yet people like you can ONLY use Bible as your tool, failing to take cognizance or provide validity to those who choose not to live their lives according to religion or Bible. They have every right to equality! So please try and provide me some argument that excludes BIBLE or its interpretation. I sense you would be hard pressed!
Wow… I am honestly impressed! If I may, 1. The Torah only tells half the story. 2. If Christians and the Bible are being attacked, then I will defend it. So most of my arguments have been based on Biblical principles for that reason. I have got a deeper and more in-depth argument for my reason for believing that the Bible is truth, but there is not space on this page to state my case. I don’t just believe it because of my Christian up bringing. If I take it as the ultimate authority by which I live my life and view the world, then I’ve got no business arguing from a different source, except to keep our argument going. That being said, I will give you a non-Biblical opinion as requested:
Everyone on earth is subject to certain laws that govern the universe. ie. Law of gravity, Law of Inertia, Law of Reaction etc. If I believe that I can jump into the air and then stay there, then I am fooling myself. If I try to breath under water, then I will drown. Now, the same concepts of thought apply to human sexuality. Have you ever seen someone putting petrol into their car’s exhaust? Homosexuality doesn’t work with the universe!!!
As for their place in society, they are valuable people with much to offer. They have the right to equality. So I have no problem with them as people. In fact they often have boldness to be admired!!
The Torah tells half the story to you. It tells the full story to me. That is for my religious purposes. I did a thesis on Jesus and the Torah by the way! It was so long ago – before Internet and goodness knows where it is now.
Homosexuality works in this universe, or else it would have disappeared long ago. Things that don’t function, or serve a purpose, die out in human evolution. The fact that homosexuality survives shows that it must serve some purpose regardless of if we understand it or not. The fact that it is seen among all higher animals suggest that it serves a purpose. The fact that your holy book does not care for it only means that your book and its very human writers have a problem It proves nothing about homosexuality itself.
Your statement, “Homosexuality doesn’t work with the universe!!!” would appear to be illogical. Belief is not necessarily either fact nor logic, it is opinion at best.
Hear, hear, Christopher! it all comes back to the whole, “Oops, G-d made a mistake” thing. For someone who seems to advocate that your Higher Power is infallible, Kosviekind, you seem hell-bent on trying to fix the mistake that your HP made by allowing us to walk the planet.
Again, just by reading these comments remind me when I was dragged into a “CHRISTIAN CULT” (how I see it) about 3 years ago. The pastor believed she was the last disciple, her home church is the ONLY REAL GAY FRIENDLY CHURCH and that other “gay friendly churches was “TOTAL off-limits” and that she and her followers had special powers. They use to call it “supernatural healing powers”. Today the pastor is apparently very sick including some of their members and they still working on their “supernatural healing powers”. Strange, it doesn’t seem to work anymore.
I was told not to even think about it, and when you make the wrong suggestion you were labeled and prayed for, sometimes hours at a time. They called it the “open door policy”, except that you been labeled and discussed with others for just thinking about it.
Things got hectic and I decided to take some time out to think. I was banned from church within 2 days, all the members told to remove and block me overnight from Facebook and to break any communication with me. All I asked was to step down for a while and take a break to think about it. Just image how it made me feel.
What is so different from my experience to this one? It’s all a one way ticket. You live according to their rules and you NOT ALLOWED TO THINK, DISCUSS OR ASK ANY QUESTIONS. In return they make sure they empty your wallet, preying on those who are volerenable. I mean, this is the best time to make the kill! They volerenable = you provide the support and comfort, they starting to heal = you make sure you keep your prey safe by changing the focus, pay-day = all your efforts is paid-out!
For some it worked! They heterosexual today, dating a girl but at the same time they also believe sex before marriage is wrong. Well, that carries them for a couple of years. They have the occasion “slip-up”, but nothing a group prayer can’t fix. (First Hand Experience and they still keeping strong.) Notice today that some even started their own group: “g0ys” = “we not gay, we straight men who like to have sex with other straight men”. Event got their own “porn site” running and regularly advertise on social media such as Facebook between the Gay community. They also like to attack any “gay support post” with their claims that you don’t need to be gay or bi-sexual to have sex with other men. (Is this a form of false hope?)
Again, I just wonder what must go through the persons mind. He is volerenable, we don’t provide him with the “HARD FACTS” but rather offer alternative options. How “fucked-up” must a person be after all of this? Wonder how this affect the rest of their lives and how many consider alternative options like Suicide?
Have you ever attended a funeral of a Gay or Lesbian person who committed suicide before? I did, and some of them tried to be heterosexual before they done it.
Have you ever spoken to their family members to offer support and explain why he/she done it?
HOMOPHOBIA is worse than CANCER! Its works slowly, but kill quickly!
THEY ARE GOING to investigate https://oblogdeeoblogda.me/2013/01/19/south-african-ministry-of-justice-probes-gay-cure-arts-school/
Gay people are much like everybody else. Some are great people, some are good people, some are so so people and of course some are going to be people that you don’t want to deal with at all. None of this has anything to do with whom they love or got to bed with.