By Melanie Nathan, April 09, 2013.
In January we reported that an Arts School in Bloemfontein, South Africa, claimed in its prospectus that it could cure homosexual students. We reported that a “South African Christian arts academy, Creare Training Centre may be breaking the law by advertising that it can “cure” homosexual students, and that if a homosexual refuses such, they can be expelled.” Then our BLOG challenged the director when he tried to deny it, and we exposed the offending literature in their written prospectus. Now they have been found guilty of Human rights violations under South African Law.
The Bloemfontein Arts Academy, Creare Training Centre, has been found guilty of human rights violation. The SA Human Rights Commission spokesperson Isaac Mangena issued a statement:
“The Creare Training Centre is violating the rights to equality, dignity, religion, freedom of association, freedom and security of the person, and education as enshrined in the Constitution,” .
The justice ministry had asked the commission to investigate claims of unfair discrimination at the Creare Training Centre in Bloemfontein in January.
Deputy Justice and Constitutional Development Minister Andries Nel told the commission the centre had a prospectus, Relationship Etiquette, which opposed same-sex relationships, and called for discipline or barring gays and lesbians from attending classes. The latter being contrary to the clear principles enshrined in the South African Constitution.
“The commission rejects the exclusionary provision in the relationship etiquette and the justification offered by Creare Training Centre,” said Mangena.
According to the center’s prospectus, they could “convert” gay students into heterosexuals through “rehabilitation”, we reported.
Creare founder Cornelius van Heyningen denied the institution was discriminatory.
“We are catering for those who say, ‘I want to change as a homosexual’. That’s not saying no homosexuals are allowed,” he was quoted as saying.
He compared the academy’s stance on homosexuality to a drug rehabilitation program. The commission recommended that the prospectus be reviewed and amended within three months.
Our earlier articles back in January:
South African Ministry of Justice probes Gay Cure Arts School
by Melanie Nathan on January 19, 2013
By Melanie Nathan, January, 19, 2013. The South African Justice Ministry has called on the Human Rights Commission to investigate claims of unfair discrimination at the Creare Training Centre in Bloemfontein. A week ago we reported that Creare Training Center’s prospectus claimed it could convert gay students into heterosexuals through “rehabilitation” and the discriminatory statements […]
South African Christian Arts Academy Claims it Can Cure Gays
by Melanie Nathan on January 13, 2013
A South African Christian arts academy in Bloemfontein may be breaking the law by advertising that it can “cure” homosexual students, and that if a homosexual refuses such, they can be expelled. By Melanie Nathan, January 13, 2012. The Sunday Times reported that the Creare Training Centre’s prospectus claimed it could convert gay students into […]
Nothing like fraud especially when done in the name of Jesus. The law was broken and
they should be brought to trial and those responsible should go to jail.
Glad to see you still reading my Blog. Thanks for the support.
pleasure. but i dont see a reason for this school to be found guilty, if they say they provide safe place for those who want to change then why is the news saying they claim to cure, looks like we getting wrong info in publice
It is clear in Creare’s media comments that they do respect the dignity of all humans. They stated that ALL people is precious in God’s sight, and that they are providing support to students who choose to change their unwanted sexual desire.
TF White – you and Creare are doing nothing more than fostering suicide in youth. Let me explain – When you lead vulnerable youngsters to believe that sexual desire can be cured or changed, you are creating an IMPOSSIBLE expectation!!!! Hence setting them up for failure – because it is proven that it is impossible to CHANGE one’s sexuality. Sure one can mask it – that is easy -but costly – and leads to despair and suicide too!!! The desire of same-sex attraction will never go away for homosexuals and lesbians. That said – LET ME SCREAM – YOU CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT “PROVIDE SUPPORT TO STUDENTS WHO C H O O S E to CHANGE their unwanted sexual desire!!!!!” as you suggest because they CANNOT!!!! BUT what you can do – is provide acceptance – fully – and equality FULLY to all and anyone who have a sexual attraction that may not be part of the heterosexual spectrum – known to be in the majority. ONLY when you provide acceptance will you truly be showing humanity and the respect and dignity you pretend is there at Creare. TF White you are wrong and deadly wrong.
Is something impossible because you decide so Melani, cause there has been many cases where sexual orientations have changed. Impossibility and improbability are 2 different things. Flawed reasoning can cause disbelief in your statements
Show me one case where a person has genuinely changed their sexual orientation and is just not miserably marking it – I challenge you! Mere marriage to different gender partners does not prove the desires have gone – it only shows masking. I can bring you examples of people who made documentaries about changing their sexual orientation and then they recanted and went right back. I did not decide it my friend – I have researched and studied it. I say it is impossible and if it is possible in a given instance I have no doubt that then they were not gay to start with.
Gert, there is no long term study of any alleged cures, no medical reports in medical journals and there have been far too many cases of even ministers in such cure gays ministries found to have reverting to being gay.
So despite the fact that you want to believe it, there is not scientific evidence.
I find it interesting that Creare is being accused of discrimination, but is this blog not putting everything in a box…. Should we not all stop pointing fingers? Yes, there should be certain protocol and standards that everyone should abide by, but what you are claiming most of us “Christians” are doing to homosexuals, you are doing to us… It becomes a vicious cycle of pointing fingers…. I don’t know you and you don’t know me and even if we did know each other it still does not give us the right to make a judgement of each other.
In the same way you are attacking so many that are commenting here (that homosexuals can change). Are you not then discriminating them just as much? I’m just asking, not trying to create a debate or pointing fingers,let’s be open minded…:)
But once again, i don’t know if anything anyone could say would convince you otherwise, but i TRUST that you will get to know the only TRUE God, He will reveal His ways to you because He loves you just like He loves the rest of His creation. “I have loved you with an everlasting love, I have drawn you with loving-kindness…”
Blessings
Ceare did discriminate and were found guilty of such – more than being accused. To be found guilty of discrimination the HRC must have had enough evidence. It was easy to prove because the Prospectus was very clear. It basically said “hey gay people if you dont change your sexuality, you will be expelled and hey gay people we can help you change that. Now Emma if I said to you “hey straight person you can only come to my school if you change from being straight to being gay and I can help you do that and if you dont change I will expel you” you will tell me: 1. You are discriminating vs. straight people 2. I cant change to being gay even if you think you can change me as science has proven such and 3. I dont want to change.
So why stop pointing fingers – if someone does something against the law the finger will be pointed at the. Creare broke the law – plain and simple. I have a right to point my finger at them and those who stick up for discrimination in the name of whatever religion.
There are different forms of Christian response to homosexuality. Creare does not have a good one. I know plenty of affirming Christian Churches and groups which have reconciled homosexual loving relationships. These Christians are NOT fundamentalists and accept their children fully. They have interpreted the Bible in a way that is perfectly affirming. They understand that Leviticus and Sodom and gemorah were written in the context of War, idol worship and rape and that nowhere does the Bible condemn same-sex loving relationships.
I am open minded BUT will never agree to condemn gay people under any circumstances – not for ANY religion. Is that the open mind you are asking me for -? Condemnation? Please dont try and convince me – the law is the law and Christians thought like that clearly expressed by CREARE through its Prospectus and subsequent arguments on its webpage BLOg by its staff speak for itself – it is unaffirming, unaccepting and harmful to gay youth. End of Story.
You assume many things about others and your religion and even your god. The fact that you assume them, the fact that you believe them does not make any of it true. No homosexuals do not change any more than heterosexuals change, nor bi sexual nor anything else. we are what we are created to be, with our strengths and our weakness. each of us fits part of the large pattern. You claim to have the true religion and the true god, but that is only what you have been taught. It may be important for you to believe that, but it does not make any of it true. Claiming something does not make it true, nor does it prove anything. You seem to believe that if you repeat something long enough that it will be accepted as true. But lies are often repeated, as is foolishness, and opinions remain opinion, no matter how long they are repeated or by how many people they are repeated by, no matter how long they are repeated.
no no no no no no, i think you may be dont real have clue. Go do statistics, the %age of people who turn to be homosexuals are in teen years, meaning no one is born like this. so there is a choice what any one needs they do and as our nation has given us liberty any one can but that doesn’t mean they cant come back and be like who they were in the first place. many examples…..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gbVgcKZQtg
no one was born and their mum told them you are this or that, but along the way it happens. and it can be undone. i dont think that school is what people are reporting.
no no no no no. NO ONE turns to be gay. NO ONE chooses to be gay. plenty of folks REALIZE they are gay at very early ages. some people don’t REALIZE they are gay until later in life. it is a realization, not a ‘turning’ or a choice, that occurs.
the only choice is whether to be homophobic or not accepting that there are many things about all of us that makes everyone amazing and diverse. we see which you have chosen.
You are funny – how can babies turn to sex? Their sexuality is established at birth – they start to feel sexual as a teen. AND nO one turns to homosexuality or heterosexuality. However attractions start in teen years – yes whether gay or straight. The ignorance in some of these comments is appalling . Do some sensible reading and stop making it up
Tim it is you who are without a clue. It is with puberty that we discover what our sexuality is. It is never a choice. Explain me Tim when you decided that you would be heterosexual.
If you are honest you will admit that you never made such a decision, you just started being attracted suddenly to girls and having wet dreams about them.
Well a gay person discovers the same attraction to boys and has wet
dreams about boys. It is not a matter of choice.
I am amazed how little you know even about your own sexuality. I have never understood why sex and lust are so frightening to some Christians. I never have understood how they could think that it is a sin to feel exactly what they were meant to feel. I consider both sex and lust to be sacred. Only if you misuse it, push it on someone that does not want it, or whom too young and scared to stop you does it become evil. Consider sex to be nasty and yes you will make it so. i consider it one of the deity’s greatest gifts to mankind.
Puberty hits and then suddenly it becomes nearly the most important thing in our lives, whether we take part in it or not. The more we repress it the stronger the need gets. Make a person feel guilty for a natural feeling and then they will make it a bad thing. I feel sorry for you.
I am old enough to be beyond the need any more, but I am glad I had my chance to experience it. It made me into the mellow human being that I am. Without it I would have been frustrated, depressed and hateful. Now I look back on the subject with a great deal of humor, even as I remember the awesomeness of the experience.
Yes Christopher you are right – its amazing how heterosexual people speak so freely and tend to apply different standards and realities to sexuality of others on the wide spectrum!
As far as I could see in the prospectus that i studied it never said the following; that they could ‘cure’ gays as if it was a disease or even that they could ‘rehabiltate’ those who are. I find this to be an inaccuracy on the reporters part as this is not showing us the truth… I wonder when the media would stop changing things to create sensationalism…. In any case, perhaps we as South Africans should revise our constitution, it seems to be a contradicting statement, you may have freedom to practice your religion and freedom to choose your sexuality, just putting those in the same category almost create the effect of a bomb exploding. Most religions I know of don’t agree that you can practice any form of other sexual orientation than that of heterosexual… And for all those who want to actually understand what this whole story is about, maybe you should check the Creare’s statement on their website. http://www.crearedream.com
But let God be the only Judge at the end of the day- in all facets of life
Excuse me – Did you read my first BLOG piece on this. The wording was very clear!!! If you suggest you can change someone’s sexual orienatation are you not suggesting they can be cured of being gay? That is what they said. So dont hide behind semantics please. Its all the same. So many kids have killed themselves because they have been told by people like this they can be changed, and then when the kids try to “change” their sexual orientation (as in seek CURE) and find its not possible but they have the expectaiton that they ought to be able to change, well they fall into deep despair and often commit suicide. This is a dangerous practice – even to suggest its possible – when it si not. CRAERE should have been fined and seen harsher punishment for their nonsense. Maybe you dont realize Emma Marais just how serious this is?
I suggest I can change your hair color, does that meaan I suggest I can cure your hair? At the end of the day it doesn’t help we attack one another. Melani, you seem like a passionate, smart person. Give people your experience, not your opinion. Those who share opinions share thoughts, those who share experience share gold. What’s your experience with Creare?
What a laughable example Gert – are you serious? Yes you are right attack is never good – so how about we call it life or death and self defense. If it were just me saying this – I would write a book and make a fortune. But its not. It is science, research and I have played very little part in that. This is not mere conjecture on my part it is fact and opinion all of which is the prerogative of she who advocates for those harmed by lies, myth and discrimination. My experience with Creare is thesame as any gay kid reading the prospectus. Feeling os discrimination, not being accepted unconditionally, evangelical interpretation of Bible that does not apply to me, yet is forced upon me because I am a gay kid interested in attending the school. I am sure they have a fabulous program and hence they should cut out the discrimination and prejudice and stop offering to CHANGE or CURE that which is natural to people. It makes those people think they are not accepted or less than – lets say it tells people directly they are less than or unacceptable. That is my experience I read the prospectus – Just like the HRC did and it breaks the law! Get a grip gert and face reality, Thanks for offering me much more power than I have earned.
How is it that I as a South African citizen who is able to express my freedom in Religion am being attacked because my religion and belief contradicts the Human Rights Commission.of my country? Either my country’s constitution is flawed or then my faith and belief in the Only True God is flawed. If you believe the latter, then so be it, but i will refuse to renounce my Belief in my God and the love and freedom He has brought about in Me! I pray that my country, South Africa that it will be a God fearing land, that it will be a land of prosperity and peace. I pray for each person that knows me and that I know, both hetrosexual and homosexual that they may come to know the true love of God and may come to know freedom in Him. I pray for you, Melanie Nathan, that you to may come to know the true love of God and find freedom in Him, I pray that you will be prosperous and enjoy LIFE! May my love for my God and for everyone else be a testimony!
Thanks for your prayers DEAN – I have a true and loving G-d who accepts me fully. Has graced me with a blessed life, with much love and support and has taken me through life, provided, accomplished, able to help those in need, a bout of cancer which has been gone for over 10 years, now in great health. I have love and light in my life – more I could not wish for. So pray away if it makes you feel good! However I have a feeling there are many more who could do with your prayers. In fact I have a long list i can provide. I think there are thousands of parents around the world who toss their kids out of home, without money or help into the streets because their kids are gay. Pray for those parents to seek love so they can accept their kids unconditionally.
That said lets talk religion. Show me one Church in South Africa where you cannot pray or preach – show me one person stop you from having your religion in SOuth Africa. Actually if they try and do that – the Constitution you are complaining about – will protect you. What you fail to understand is that YOUR religion cannot and should not interfere in realms where it does not belong- where you encroach on other people’s lives or space – or proclaim prejudice and inequality – hiding behind your religion. Where you claim you can cure people in the name of religion or some GOD that others may not believe in.
Have your religion where it belongs but it keep it out of secular lives of those who do not choose it. If someone wants to pray to your God they know exactly where to go….
I am not going to force you to be a Jew dont force me to be a Christian. I am not going to force you to be gay dont force me to be straight.Now stop whining and grow up.
You freedom of religion does not top another person’s humans rights. You are free to believe whatever you want, but not to force your beliefs on anyone.
Nothing can reduce the work of God in whichever way. No discussion, no human right commission, whatever you want to call it will stand in the path of what God is busy doing in this nation to reconcile it to Him.
“My sisters and brothers, Jesus calls us to love even our enemies. Demeaning the humanity of another person is not a virtue but a vice. You don’t need reminding that the first step to genocide is demeaning your opponents’ humanity.” Reverend Kapya Kaoma https://oblogdeeoblogda.me/2013/04/10/outrage-at-detention-of-zambian-gay-human-rights-defender/ HUMAN ROGHTS COMMISSIONS stand in the way of religious zealots who call for the death of fellow man, misinterpreting Bible and taking it out of context to fuel bigotry and hate. Keep your religion to yourself and I will keep my human rights to myself RONALD
I am always amazed that people are so certain that God’s work will agree with what they believe. My, such remarkable arrogance.
Nothing like to alleged love coming from Ronald and Dean. Amazing how threats and forcing things on people is not exactly a way of showing love.
Meanwhile I leave them to their apparent hatred of people who disagree with them. I will agree to disagree however.
As for what God plans, or wants, or says, all we have is what various men have written. When God wants to say anything to us, he will not need mere men to write or talk for him. Until then all we have is speculation.
What I find really ironic is that a group of people (Creare) who have never advocated hate nor issued, encouraged or supported any form of hate speech against anyone, are at the receiving end of so much hate speech from people who have no first-hand knowledge as to who they are or what they do; people who are basing their accusations purely and entirely on a media report and hearsay. And then those people demand that Creare be closed down and their leaders be jailed for…wait for it…inciting hatred…?? If we claim to advocate tolerance and non-judgementalism, we should be careful what kinds of comments we leave on national media.
“The law was broken and they should be brought to trial and those responsible should go to jail.” – Funny, that’s pretty much the same thing the Pharisees said about Jesus Christ.
What we need here is for all of us to recognise that, although we are not our religion, we are not our past, we are not our experiences, we are all individuals with different frames of reference based on our past, our experiences and our beliefs, and we cannot judge anyone based on our limited experience and knowledge. Only God is omniscient, only God is omnipotent and so we will never understand His ways. But what I do know is that He said in Isaiah 55:10 “For as the rain and snow come down from the heavens, and return not there again, but water the earth and make it bring forth and sprout, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return to Me void [without producing any effect, useless], but it shall accomplish that which I please and purpose, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” He is ultimately our Judge, and His Word discerns and judges the thoughts and attitudes of our hearts. His will comes to pass in our lives when we place our lives in His hands, and no weapon formed against those in His will, shall prosper. He has the final say. Let God be Creare’s Judge. Amein and amein.
Then stop judging gay students as being less than – or requiring change or cure! Cut the hypocrisy. Jesus Christ and what you read about him in a book called a Bible is of no relevance in secular courts – the imperative operation of separation of church and state is imperative to a democracy. Why don’t you go and live in a theocracy if that is what you want. Seems like there may be a few choices for you. Looks like Uganda is going that way…. But Mandela was smart he provided truly for a democracy when he was released and ensured all minorities were protected by the Constitution and South African courts are thankfully fiercely independent. Hence you can forget about SA becoming a Christian Theocracy.
Please remember that it was the Romans that killed Christ and then took over his religion. Remember that the Roman court system had a long history of official corruption. Remember that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi and it was fifty years later when his followers separated themselves from the Jewish religion because his religion had been taken over by outsiders. It was the rRoman church that then tried to shift the blame onto the Jewish people.
What a shame that Christians who claim to follow Jesus, ignore the teaching of Rabbi Jesus and ignore all of Christian history. I am left to wonder what Jesus would thin about the religion that now takes his name in vain.
Of course I often ask the same question of all the founders of the religions and I doubt that any of them would approve of what today’s followers do in their name.
The school can not cure anything, but we as Christians believe that if you make a choice to believe in Jesus Christ He can set you free from anything!!! The choice is your’s people! Choose freedom in Jesus Christ!!! Let Him set you free!
Why do you assume gay people Ilze even want to be set free from their natural born sexual orientation. Or are you? Is that tacit in your comment. I know many many gay people who are perfectly happy being who they are – there is only one thing that makes them miserable about it and that is the fact that certain people think they need to change – hence the “set you free” dicta!!
Zooming out a little here. The school never claimed to be gay is a sickness or that they have a cure for it. That is a blatant lie and it was blown up by the media. They provide the facility for people who would want to change their orientation if those people believe they want to do that. That is up to the individual. Also, if somebody does not agree with the Bible, why would they in the first place go to train at a place that is based on the Bible? Just go to any other art school in the world. There is no discrimination in that. The Bible is clear about the topic. If Creare would alter their beliefs that means they must renounce the Bible. What is the point of that? Now if you don’t have a biblical world view, then what are you doing trying to study at Creare in the first place.
Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of the so called gay gene or anything that people are born gay. It’s the same as looking for missing links in evolution. Not going to happen.
It has been scientifically proven that people are born gay. It has not been scientifically proven that a God disapproves of gays. Of course most non Christians would not go near a school that touts Bible as its basis.That is always a choice. So why then did Creare need to insert discrimination into its policy? And it went further it said “we can help you change” – ! What a load of hogwash. Its impossible to change sexuality. However Creaere went against the law when it clearly implied that it would cure gays of their sexuality and it clearly siad it would expel gays. Paul did you read the Prospectus? Not to mention the HR COURT finding them to have committed the misdeed via evidence. So sorry try as hard as you can to swing it away from the truth, the facts are the facts. Paul, the words in the Prospectus could not be clearer. Check out my first BLOG on this.
“They provide the facility for people who would want to change their orientation if those people believe they want to do that.” – one cannot ‘change their orientation’ one can only agree to live a life of self-hate and self-denial pretending to not be who they are. yes, people are born gay. it is neither learned nor chosen.
“why would they in the first place” and “if you don’t have a biblical world view” – students would not chose to go there, parents would force them to especially with a prospectus promising conversion, just the same as parents force youth to undergo reparative/conversion therapy to gain that life of self-hatred and self-denial that is the only outcome barely resembling a ‘cure’. Even Exodus International has admitted it is not possible to change, only to suppress.
What happened to God Is Love? love your child as they are. stop pretending something is wrong that needs to be fixed when nothing is wrong and nothing needs to be fixed except the narrow minded view that is trans and homophobia.
well said
Well now we see, just another person who is anti science. Whenever a religion has to condemn science and disbelieve it it only shows the weakness of the religion. Now my religion has no conflict with science. But then my religion makes no wild claims either.
Paul, Gee you so quickly forget that it is often their parents that force gay kids to go to these type of place. The teenager has not choice in the matter. the parent is sold the fraud that these places can make their teenager straight, which the parent desperately wants.
However it is going to fail and unfortunately it is the teenager that the parent is going to take their disappointment out on because of the fraud claimed that this is actually a choice made by the teenager. So the failure is seen as the teenagers fault and not the fraud by the organization. so the teenager comes back in even worse shape, both within and with his parents.
Amazing the lack of care that you have for the teenager.
And has been known to directly cause so many suicides – certainly here in the USA – where kids are led to believe that they can CHANGE and then try with all their might and cannot. . Hence the importance of media outburst and taking this seriously.
This is TOTALLY blown out of proportion! My WORD, people – Creare is doing great work, building up communities, people groups and HELPING people. You cannot trust anything that makes headlines these days. Gosh – the media must be all about money and sales to go this far to bend the truth. #ShockedAtMediaMindset
Helen easy for you to say eh? I imagine you have not been the subject of discrimination in relation to the School. Perhaps you should put yourself in the shoes of a Christian youngster who is gay or lesbian, who would love to attend the school. Then happens upon the Prospectus which says you have to change your sexuality or you will be expelled? Nice! I love it when people comment with such assurance who have no idea of the impact of the harm on youngsters. As for media money LOL goodluck to those who make money off stuff like this – as long as they do their job to expose it. That said, this BLOG is labor of love. I t costs me 40 unpais hours per week and allk the ads on it are free of charge. it also serves as a platform for many behind the scenes advocacy hours, NO MONEY made here, LOL! In fact a time consuming financial struggle is all that I get out of it. How about subscribing?
There are plenty of organizations and individuals purporting to do great work, building up communities, helping the poor and downtrodden, but at the same time doing wrong. Should we ignore the wrong under the guise that ‘the good outweighs the bad’? Especially when the bad is harming youth? I think not.
I give you Scott Lively as Exhibit A. He comes to my community, opens a ministry and coffeehouse, embarks on helping the poor and the homeless of which there are many. At the same time he travels the world spreading his message of hate, inciting the Kill The Gays Bill in Uganda, squashing human rights ordinances in multiple locations, … should we stand by and say “oh, that’s ok. he is helping the poor here in Springfield.” I think not.
So, when we see injustice we should call it out as has been done with Creare and their prospectus offering to ‘change’ a student’s orientation. Good on Melanie for reporting this and bringing it to the forefront. Hard to imagine the Human Rights Commission is simply ‘blowing’ everything out of proportion too.
Let because Creare claims to doing great work, you accept that. Like every other organization Creare knows all about public relations and the use of words to convince people in what they are selling. This is true of all businesses, all religions and all governments.
We are all born into sin, sin keeps us away from God, we need to repent from our sins so that we may draw closer to Him.
So you claim and so you were taught. What a sad thing to believe, that mankind is basically evil for being exactly what he was created to be. Even your Adam and Eve were created curious, naive and without wisdom. They were designed to fail.
I am lucky to believe differently. I believe each of our mortal lives are classrooms with different lessons to be learned and that in time all of us will learn all the lessons that we need to learn.
Were we supposed to be perfect, we would be. Perfect means without flaw, and perfect can never become imperfect. But we have each be created imperfect but with a chance to learn and improve. That is something worth celebrating. We literally become the co-creators of ourselves through living our lives.
My life as a Christian has been discriminated against by those who feel what I stand for threatens their way of life. Today truth is relative and I believe in absolute Truth, and I get that some people won’t like it. Forgiveness and acceptance of the person despite their actions and beliefs is a key because God loves, forgives and accepts. I have no beef with anyone as a result – no judgment, unforgiving attitudes etc, because Jesus Christ sets us free from all that rubbish. This includes my attitude toward people in same-sex relationships.
My problem as an otherwise proudly South African citizen is that in this case the media blew the whole thing out of proportion (no surprise there!), the attack of the homosexual community on Creare as a result, and the sensationalism caused by the whole circus, causing atheists, conspiracy theorists, and your average anti-Christian activist to jump the bandwagon as well. I believe if more people focused on truth and not own opinions, personal agendas, media distortion, and emotional vomit, there would be more clarity surrounding the situation. Every coin has two sides, but not everyone is mature enough to try looking at the situation through different spectacles, and evaluate it based on clear truth despite their personal world view.
The SAHRC found Creare guilty because of Scriptures regarding homosexuality and heterosexuality, and how their statement of belief is worded based on those Scriptures. We all have a human right to stand on what we believe… or do we? The media frenzy regarding a “cure” for homosexuality is sensation-driven, and fueled by recent “born this way” propaganda, as it appears to me that this claim of a “cure” was never really made by Creare itself, but rather coined be media. But rationally thinking, if there are “straight” people who realize they are actually “gay”, and “come out”, then why can’t there be “gay” people who realize they are actually “straight” and want to change their lifestyle? Why is it we can only change in one direction, and not the other? I’m talking real solid proof here, not case studies and half-truths. I want to see Break-through scientific evidence similar to the law of gravity here to justify such claims. We all know why the object falls to the ground and doesn’t fall to the sky, so if it is true that orientation can only change in one direction, give us a solid scientific explanation. If not, maybe there is a solution for gay people turning straight, and not only for straight people turning gay? And maybe this safe environment can be created by Creare, and the process facilitated without manipulation and being forced? As there is a process of discovery and adaptation for the person who turns gay, and a community that accepts and willingly orientates this person in the process, could there be a need for such a process to be facilitated the other way around as well? If so, is it wrong? Will the homosexual community reject this individual?
The same maturity it requires to not judge people based on their sexual orientation, and still love and accept them despite my beliefs about it, is required by the homosexual community in it’s approach to matters like these. My apologies for immature believers who hate people that “live in sin”, seems we get the haters on both sides of the camp here. Just presenting the opposite side of the coin. Let’s focus on truth.
The flaw in your theory that [there are “straight” people who realize they are actually “gay”, and “come out”, then why can’t there be “gay” people who realize they are actually “straight” and want to change their lifestyle?] is in your own wording that your straight people who realize they are in fact gay just realize, come out and accept they are gay, but your gay people “WANT TO CHANGE” to be straight and that change requires therapy. No conversion therapy was required to realize you are gay, only therapy to “convert” to heterosexuality.
Another thing to keep in mind in this case is that all conversion therapy is not voluntary, especially in the case of youth whose parents are the ones who WANT [them] TO CHANGE in which case the gay people in your example don’t get to realize or want anything as it will be forced upon them along with the knowledge that they are unwanted as they are.
The truth is people don’t convert. People may come to realize their sexuality is different from what they initially thought, but straight people don’t convert to be gay nor do gay people convert to be straight.
Are you and Cathy speaking the same language Riaan or do you just NOT read!. YOU SAID – “The only reason anyone should change their lifestyle or orientation is by freedom of choice to do so” – Cathy is telling you that it is NOT POSSIBLE to change your sexual orientation. Hence there is no such thing as freedom to do so!!!! Sexual orientation is NOT a lifestyle. Sailing in the Med on a warm sunny day is a lifestyle! There is no reason to change one’s sexual orientation because it is not physically possible. Now I told you if you do not reveal your own sexual orientation then I am not going to post any more of your comments because you are speaking as if you know what it is like to be gay and unless you are gay the particular comments you are making are without any merit at all. Unless of course you are straight and are suggesting that straight men can choose to be gay. SO if you want me to put up any more of your comments then tell me ARE YOU GAY?
If not then why do you speak as if you know what it is like to be gay. Unless you think straight people can also change their sexual orientation and whop they truly desire.
Even suggesting that people can CHANGE is offering conversion therapy – whether in the nae of the Bible or otherwise. Its is cruel and unkind and ignorant and no ifs or buts about it!!!
To even suggest that someone SHOULD change – whether because of your interpretation of the Bible – is to deny G-ds will for that person.
Creare misinterprets the Bible when it even suggests that change is necessary and by putting what they did in the prospectus they are essentially telling youngsters – “you are not okay the way you are.” There is nothing in the Bible that condemns health loving same-sex relationships and
Hi Melanie. I’m not gay, but neither do I reject people who are. If you don’t post my comments it won’t ruin my life, but it will take away my right to defend what I said originally or explain it if anyone misinterpreted what I said. On top of that, not allowing my comments based on my sexual orientation is discrimination, and reveals your blog as biased. It’s up to you.
Thank you Riaan. And yes you do not understand what it is to be gay. If you did you would reexamine each and everyone of your comments by flipping the orientations imagining the context of what it would feel like to be told you should change from being a heterosexual man being a gay man – If I suggested that you change your attraction to women for an attraction to men , I am sure you will agree that on every level, be it sex or love or partnership that it is simply not possible. That is what this boils down to. You and others can go off all you want on feeling bad for Creare , saying they do good work, trying to come up with your ideas about gay and straight – frnakly it is all heady hogwash and simply boils down to one thing – Sexual orientation cannot be changed, cannot be cured and people like Creare should stop suggesting it because it hurts our youngsters – it is unaccpeting, it is discriminatory and it is bigotted, bible or no bible – Period! I rest my case.
You create an interesting straw-man, your idea of an homosexual, then you argue against your own creation. However it has nothing to do with what any homosexual is, nor what the alleged homosexual community does.
You also limit human sexuality to either gay or straight. It is never so simple. Now the bi-sexual may be straight for a while and then gay for awhile, and sometimes both at the the same time, but that appears to be more rare.
We haven’t even dented the possibilities of human sexuality. Human sexuality is complex and interesting. But of course many Christians are afraid of sexuality. Yet sexuality was built into the original design of humans. as far as human sexuality, science avoided study of it for much of recent history and then made the assumption that what people believed about sexuality and what society thought t should be was true.
However when science finally began to study sexuality, they found out what people actually did was far different from what they claimed to believe or what they told each other. they found out that many of society’s taboos had no logical reason. believing something does not make it true and belief is rarely affected by facts.
Believe whatever you like about sexuality, but stop trying to force your religious views of it on others.
Let us also remember how repressed South African society has been with regard to sexuality. Remember the years of banning and Calvinism. That strain of thinking obscures understanding of the spectrum of sexuality in South Africa in particular. YEARS and decades of repression – Playboy magazine banned and shame around sexuality abounded back in those days. Expect to see the strain continue.
Christopher I agree that human sexuality is complex, and the open debate and research concerning it in recent times can be very positive and helpful. You mention sexuality was built into the original design of humans, and I totally agree. But by Whom? Despite what you and I believe, it seems you have also created a straw-man of your own, assuming I am trying to force my beliefs on people, and also that Creare is doing the same. My experience and perception differs. I am merely defending an institution and it’s people and the work it is doing, not attacking you or your beliefs or community. Hurt can be perceived when not given, and offense cannot be given but taken only. Apologies if this is how I came across.
Thank you for letting me Know you are straight. And yes you do not understand what it is to be gay. If you did you would reexamine each and everyone of your comments by flipping the orientations imagining the context of what it would feel like to be told you should change from being a heterosexual man being a gay man – If I suggested that you change your attraction to women for an attraction to men , I am sure you will agree that on every level, be it sex or love or partnership that it is simply not possible. That is what this boils down to. You and others can go off all you want on feeling bad for Creare , saying they do good work, trying to come up with your ideas about gay and straight – frnakly it is all heady hogwash and simply boils down to one thing – Sexual orientation cannot be changed, cannot be cured and people like Creare should stop suggesting it because it hurts our youngsters – it is unaccpeting, it is discriminatory and it is bigotted, bible or no bible – Period! I rest my case.
YOU SAY “The SAHRC found Creare guilty because of Scriptures regarding homosexuality and heterosexuality, and how their statement of belief is worded based on those Scriptures.” DId you read that in the judgment. I did not see that from anything I read. That was not the basis of their decision. Have you read the Judgment transcript?
Hi Melanie. Have you? Or did you only read the press releases and news bulletins? I have spoken to someone who studied a copy of it at a recent conference.
yes
You are providong opinion and conjecture about the so called media frenzy. Perhaps you should look more at the impact of the statements made by Creare on the lives of young people who they mislead with the idea that they can change. I am sorry but your comment makes no sense, given the harm. Of course the media should report this and of course Creaere should feel the heat for discrimination and the mere suggestion that gay people can or should be changed. Riaan and you Gay? If so what is the level of acceptance you experienced as a child or teen or young adult from your peers? Your family? Your community? Your Church? Answer that before commenting again please.
Have you been rejected by your peers for choosing to follow Christ, and questioned by your parents who were then part of a stern religious group concerning the freedom in your serving Him? My community was a group of young adults who were anti-religion, and saw me choosing to follow a certain Way as foolish and wrong. Is there a difference?
We all need to deal with the issues of our youth, in various areas of life, and choose to forgive and let go and move on.
I have seen discrimination and how it affects people, some of it done in the name of Christ which is a grave misrepresentation of Him and more a representation of a spirit of religion and death. I see Creare as a place that wants to represent Christ accurately, not of persecuting gay people.
I think commenting on media sensationalism is valid, as what I see and hear in the media and what I see and hear from Creare are two different things.
What I find interesting in the whole debate is that people believe there are straight people who should “come out” because they are actually gay, but beware our souls if we should believe and actually imply there may be gay people who are actually straight, and even worse, might change willingly without being forced..? And should this come out in the media, we will see emotional death and carnage. If it is true, though, then can it be that Creare is fighting for and defending the human rights of these people?
Thank you for letting me Know you are straight. And yes you do not understand what it is to be gay. If you did you would reexamine each and everyone of your comments by flipping the orientations imagining the context of what it would feel like to be told you should change from being a heterosexual man being a gay man – If I suggested that you change your attraction to women for an attraction to men , I am sure you will agree that on every level, be it sex or love or partnership that it is simply not possible. That is what this boils down to. You and others can go off all you want on feeling bad for Creare , saying they do good work, trying to come up with your ideas about gay and straight – frankly it is all heady hogwash and simply boils down to one thing – Sexual orientation cannot be changed, cannot be cured and people like Creare should stop suggesting it because it hurts our youngsters – it is unaccpeting, it is discriminatory and it is bigotted, bible or no bible – Period! I rest my case.
The South African Human Rights Commission finds that the Creare Training Centre prospectus “Relationship Etiquette” which opposes same sex relationships; and calls for discipline or barring gays lesbians from attending classes, violates the rights to equality, dignity, religion, freedom of association, freedom and security of the person and education as enshrined in the constitution.
Riaan,
The attack did not come from the homosexual community it came from the fact that that the organization broke the law of the land.
How does this discriminate against you, simply the fact that you cannot force your belief our your religions ideal of right and wrong on others. I love this fact that you seem to believe that because you are Christian that the government should give you special rights over people and make laws against those who disagree with you.
You have a long way to go to prove that you, or Christians have actually suffered discrimination. now if someday the south african Police set up a special unit specializing in christian crime then you may begin to understand what real discrimination is.
I am not forcing beliefs, but defending an institution, it’s people, and the work they’re doing. The media offers a focus point on minors, as Creare does not specialize in any form of sexuality conversion, but actually develops and trains people so the gold in them might come forth. It sounds to me more like a community that believes in people and what they are capable of, not a rehab or conversion center. Yes, they operate from a Biblical world view, but as far as I know that is not illegal. I want to see it proven that they force anything on anyone. Let’s look at the bigger picture here.
We live in a country that came from severe discrimination, and believe it or not we are working towards restoration and a South Africa that can reflect the wealth found in it’s people. I find your comment that I believe that because of my beliefs, I expect the government to change it’s laws so I can oppress people, quite offensive in the context we are living in on a daily basis.
The Bible is stained by the blood of martyrs, as by far the majority of the New Testament is written by people who were imprisoned, persecuted, tortured, crucified, boiled alive, etc. Even today, people are tortured and killed for owning a Bible or even speaking about Christ. Children are disowned and abandoned, women maimed, pastors shot. It happens today on a daily basis. These police units actually exist, and are real even though we do not see them in our own countries.
Thank you for letting me Know you are straight. And yes you do not understand what it is to be gay. If you did you would reexamine each and everyone of your comments by flipping the orientations imagining the context of what it would feel like to be told you should change from being a heterosexual man being a gay man – If I suggested that you change your attraction to women for an attraction to men , I am sure you will agree that on every level, be it sex or love or partnership that it is simply not possible. That is what this boils down to. You and others can go off all you want on feeling bad for Creare , saying they do good work, trying to come up with your ideas about gay and straight – frnakly it is all heady hogwash and simply boils down to one thing – Sexual orientation cannot be changed, cannot be cured and people like Creare should stop suggesting it because it hurts our youngsters – it is unaccpeting, it is discriminatory and it is bigotted, bible or no bible – Period! I rest my case.
Ah yes the myth of the bloodied martyrs. Not saying that were not any, but there is no historical evidence of any great period of Christian persecution. Even religious historians admit that no such period can be documented. So unfortunately you are going to have to provide such evidence.
We cannot even find any historical evidence of who wrote the books of the New Testament, however there are a variety of different writing styles in each book suggesting they were written by a series of writers. The earliest evidence suggests that it was unlikely that any of them were written by the men who are credited with writing them. Most of them appear to have been written after the period of Christ’s followers would have been dead.
However today I don’t believe we have any copies going back beyond the second century. Most of the copies that still exist are third century or later.
Then the are a variety of such books, with the final choice of which books to include made in the fourth century. So early Christians practiced with out a complete new testament. Different groups had different sets of letters. In the first 200 years f christianity there were six distinct branches of Christianity. Though Constantine made it the state religion he never actually practiced the religion. The priests would try to claim a death bed conversion.
He is believed to be a follower of Mithras. Interesting how they changed the seventh day Saturday to the first day Sunday, day of the sun, sacred to Mithras, and moved the celebration of the birth of jesus from Spring to the what was then the Winter Solstice which was the day Mithras was supposed to have been born. Of course the Winter Solstice is one of the oldest holy days in almost all of the older pagan religions.
It is a shame you have not read actual Christian history, the Romans were very good at keeping records. Again if you read history you will find that Christians often wrote secular law to support their own beliefs and often made other beliefs illegal, even killing different Sects of Christians that disagree with them.
South Africa in its constitution is a secular nation. None of its laws should favor one religion over another. Even atheists deserve the right to their view. freedom of religion means all religions, as well as the right to practice none of them. People should be left alone to practice their own beliefs.
“South Africa in its constitution is a secular nation. None of its laws should favor one religion over another. Even atheists deserve the right to their view. freedom of religion means all religions, as well as the right to practice none of them. People should be left alone to practice their own beliefs.” Thank you for this CB – its been my experience as a blogger and activist that many Christians and those who try to use the Bible to denounce natural sexuality, think their religion is absolute and hence that they have a right to dominate secular life – it been the cause of so much pain to so many young gay people.
As I understand Creare is not a school where you do math, physics etc. It is a arts ‘school’ where you can choose to go after school. Therefore you are already 18 and able to make your own decisions…it is not as if parents force their little kids to attend this ‘school’. The other thing that I have noticed is that Creare seems to be like a Bible college under the church. When looking at their website I saw that whatever they do, whether dance, drama, music or studying scriptures, they do it with a Christian ministry focus. The point I’m trying to make is that, it is basically a church/bible/arts training center, not just a normal arts accademy. The church should hold the right to who joins their ministry. What I’ve seen (if I’m not mistaken) is that the person who cannot continue fulltime studies, can still take partime classes. With the part-time classes, no one is ever discontinued from further studies.
I am 18 years old, finishing school this year. I can make my own choice of what I want to do next year…my parents and nobody else is forcing me. I personally will not mind to enroll at Creare as there are many things in my life that I would like to change. From what I’ve seen, these people create a ‘safe’ environment where I can change. Every single individual has the right to ‘want to change’ don’t they? I believe I can change, and that is my right!
Do you live in South Africa Paulsen? Tradition there is different and kids tend to leave home only after College, not like in the USA at age 18. That said many 18 year olds are still dependent on their parents for support and hence are pushed into colleges that may not be their first choice. I also know young people who are kicked out of home with no support or money who are 18 and older, who are forced by parents to “change” their sexual orientation as a condition of support or living at home. You seem to have your life in order – not all do! Regardless of your point it is against the law to discriminate in South Africa against sexual orientation. Creare is telling people to change their orientation or be expelled. Why could they not stay silent on the subject and just be fully accepting of all students.
No problem if it is your choose to change and you are not being pressured by parents. That is not always the case that that is the problem.
It was like that mixed race boy recently who wanted to be white, with the benefits that would come with being seen as white in South Africa, after all he was as much white as he was black. But that was not something this society would allow, he wanted the change very bad, But it was not something that cold be changed i society as it is. Perhaps some day in South Africa it will not matter if you are white black mixed or whatever, but that is not the case right now.
The gay person faces the same problem being gay is not changeable if you are gay, nor is straight changeable if you are straight. But being straight will not get you the physical nor the emotional attacks you will get if you are gay in modern day South Africa. Perhaps in the future there may be a day where your sexual orientation will not be important, but it is not that day yet.
I agree with tim!