By Melanie Nathan, April 07, 2013.
South Africa is a leader in the world of equality, enjoying an all inclusive constitution, where same-sex marriage is legal and discrimination against LGBTI people outlawed. However that has not stopped homophobia and fear to embrace LGBTI South Africans as fully equal.
This video and the report of the marriage that followed, shows an extraordinary example of new-found acceptance, as a small community embraces a young gay Zulu couple, about to embark upon, not only a legal marriage, but also a traditional marriage.
As reported from South Africa:
Two young men tied the knot in a rare South African gay wedding in KwaDukuza (Stanger) on Saturday.In what was described as the town’s first gay marriage, Tshepo Modisane and Thoba Sithole, both 27, walked down the aisle in front of 200 guests at the Stanger Siva Sungam community hall.
The wedding was a jubilant, exciting affair, attracting even uninvited members of the local community.
Thoba, a Joburg-based IT specialist, is from Shakaville, KwaDukuza and Tshepo an audit manager at PwC. They have known each other for years and dated on and off, before stabilising their relationship.
Now that they are wedded, they will take on the double-barrelled surname of Sithole-Modisane.
The couple appeared to enjoy the support from the community, family and friends.
The couple are reportedly planning to have children through a surrogate.
“Family is important to us and that is the number one reason why we want to have children,” said Thoba.
“We also want our children to grow up in an environment where they are loved greatly by both parents who appreciate them.” (SA Report)
This wedding will go down in history as one of the most significant events in South African LGBTI history, as it breaks unknown barriers in the face of last year’s assault by the Zulu traditional chiefs, who sought to remove sexual orientation as a protected class from the South African Constitution. The South African gay community held numerous protests against the move and it was thwarted.
There is hope that Africa can become more open by embracing all its people and allow tradition to embrace all forms of sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has always included heterosexuality, bisexuality and homosexuality. Now traditionalists have an opportunity to recognize it too.
As one groom noted, “Being gay is as African as being black.”
This community shows that when it comes to the bottom line, it is all about love and acceptance and even tradition has its seat at the table of evolution.
Watch Video of Wedding:
Watch Video in preparation for wedding:-
By Melanie Nathan, [email protected]
Cathy Kristofferson contributed to this article.
Note: We appreciate your comments and will post all points of view- however foul language, hate and direct attacks on people will not pass moderation. Comments are moderated and so may take some time to appear.
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its only us human beings who want to experiment ,how can a man marry another man and you say you want to have children,where will those children come from.dogs ,baboons, chickens ,cats , lions they can tell the difference between male & female
Surely Brian you have enough common sense to know that sexuality is on a spectrum – a person can be heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. So what you have here are 2 men who have fallen in love, They live in a country where the Constitution allows them to marry. Now they have taken the step of true Zulu warrior – bravery – to mix tradition and law – which has been the fate of many Zulu and other tribal customs. Its all about evolution. Hvaing a baby through a surrogate parent is just perfect!
It is very hard for Americans to understand the long long history of tribal cultures. … Thanks for your answer and comment. I agree.. All Babies should be raised by parents who really WANT THEM… not by accidental biological ones.
If people reserved sex for committed marriage-as it was expected just a few decades ago-then there would not be babies born outside of families. 30 years ago, when sex outside of marriage was still a debate “break down of the family” was a argument against promiscuous sexual behavior and “no fault” divorce.
Now that these predictions have come true, instead of saying “Gee, you were right! Sexual promiscuity isn’t good for marriage!” everyone is pointing to “break down of the family” as a reason to redefine what marriage is.
Dude, human monogamy is a relatively new development. We existed tens of thousands of years before we decided culturally to limit our sexual partners to one.
Perfect reply, Melanie. Brian’s poor attempt at being bigoted is sadly pathetic.
Brian wasn’t being a bigot he was only pointing out how the philosophy of nature works. The original purpose for sex is procreation…it feels good too. Now it’s about the feeling and not it’s primary purpose…to procreate. So how is it natural for two of the same kind to engage in the act of procreation and not fulfill its purpose. Brian pointed out that the animals of the earth don’t engage in this behavior. Love is an emotion…emotions are like suggestions. Just because you have it don’t make it right. Feelings without a filter will lead you to failure.
Brian may not realize he was being a bigot. Anyone who cannot open their minds to change and evolution may be construed as Biggoted when faced with the reality of change. But hey who i am I to judge. Save to say Doctore, your comments are as biased. You fail to acknowledge the science that sexuality is based on a spectrum and degrees between homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality. Procreation is a separate issue in this day and age of birth control, population explosion and sperm banks! Time for everyone to enter the world as it is meant to be now! I invite you to join.
Actually there are over 1,000 species that engage in homosexual behavior. Some animals are mates for life and it has been found that there are many male-male life partners in the animal kingdom. Sure maybe the primary function of sex is to procreate but does that mean that every single human being must procreate? There are too many parent-less children out there who could be well taken care of by same sex couples.
Both you and Brian are totally misguided and ignorant. There are recorded 1500 species that practice homosexuality. Homophobia is only found in the human species. Furthermore, procreation isn’t the only primary purpose of sex between couples. What about heterosexual couples who cannot procreate? Couples can have sex to bond and be intimate with one another to maintain their relationships. Read a book and open your eyes and your mind Doctore!!!
People have misinterpreted the bible for centuries to justify bigotry and I bet that’s where most knowledge on homosexuality education has been derived from. Not very long ago women were regarded as second class citizens based on the ‘teachings’ from the bible. In fact some communities still insists on these ‘teachings’ today.
I wish these men all the best. They truly are brave and an inspiration to other young black gay men like myself.
And let’s not forget that it is well documented that homosexual behaviors exist throughout the entirety of the animal kingdom, not just in human cultures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
The animals of this earth don’t make and use weapons of mass destruction, or start wars over greed, either. And yet, we don’t follow THAT example. However, science has proven…PROVEN…that homosexuality does indeed exist in over 100 species in the animal world. Nice try, but try again.
I would like to ask you, that, since you are under the impression that love is an emotion, which is a suggestion, that you tell us when it was suggested to you that you fall in love with your current or previous partner(s). You see, people don’t “choose” who they fall in love with. Either it’s there, or it isn’t. Lots of people are in relationships, but that doesn’t mean they “truly” are in love. Only those who are truly in love know that it isn’t a choice, and it isn’t limited to heterosexuals. Those who say homosexuals “choose” to be that way are very sad individuals, to be honest. They obviously have never known the happiness of falling in love.
The species you mention may participate in so called homosexual relationships …but as humans there’s only one natural way to procreate… and for the record primary means first and yes ….procreation is the primary purpose of sex
And what about those who enjoy sex not for procreation – must they cease their heterosexual activities? And what about love, companionship, laws that provide mutual duties of support, etc all the attributes of a relationship? Must they cease to be equally obtainable for same-sex couples, just because straight couples have the ability to procreate without having to go to a sperm bank or seek a surrogate. Hey Doctore, I suggest you creep back into this world… we are here NOW!
Sex in an intensely social species such as ours has many purposes, the primary one being to form intimate ties that bind a couple not only to each other, but to both of their families and their societies. We need that established first in order to raise human children. We aren’t like sea turtles who lay eggs in the sand and then swim away. For them, sex is primarily about procreation, but not for us.
If the lovers are a young fertile couple who don’t practice contraception, they’ll likely make babies, but they need everyone else in society to help raise them. People who build schools, teach, police, keep the water safe and the power reliable, keep public parks maintained, doctors, drive trucks that deliver food and goods, farmers, pastors and everyone else, some of whom are Gay and all of whom parents need to raise their children in a modern society.
If the lovers are not a fertile couple and want to help raise the next generation, there are the age old ways that infertile couples have dealt with that obstacle since at least antiquity. Surrogates, donors, adoption, guardianship.
Congratulations to the Happy Couple!
My heterosexual parents were never able to procreate. Do you want to break them up? Also there is homosexual behavior throughout the animal kingdom. What is missing is homophobia.
Homosexual behavior has been observed in the natural world between almost every animal species and quite a few birds. There are gay horses, monkeys, dogs, even penguins. The fact that the majority of members of any given species choose to have sex with the opposite sex does not invalidate the minority who do not. The animals of the earth ABSOLUTELY “engage in this behavior.” In point of fact there are over 1500 species that do so. Do the research before making a statement like this next time around.
I hate to prove you wrong Doctore and Brain but as a Zoologist I can assure you homosexuality is totally natural in all animals from flies to sheep to Chimpanzees, and at a rate of about 10%. Yes even sheep have long-term commited homosexual relationships. It does not lead to procreation, obviously, but ‘gay’ kin has proven survival benefits for related offspring (‘the Gay Uncle Theory’) thus proving beneficial. There are many things in nature that are selected for but only as a small percentage (another example being left-orientation, instead of right). If you want to use the ‘what’s natural argument’ then please first know what is natural!
You are actually completely wrong that this is only a human thing. Totally wrong.
“Now it’s about the feeling and not it’s primary purpose…to procreate. ” So masturbating is not “normal”? Should we appoint you official sex police to determine what’s allowable?
” Brian pointed out that the animals of the earth don’t engage in this behavior.” Brian is wrong and so are you. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200906/gay-animals
Next pretext for hatred?
Doctore, I think you’re confusing purpose with consequence. One of the consequences of sex is procreation – it is also one of its success factors. But a purpose would imply that somebody sat down and actually thought about how to get more creatures on the planet.
By the way, how can something that two people like to do not be natural? Where does the pleasure come from if not from themselves? If they are creatures, then by definition their behaviour is natural.
Moreover, how can you say that an emotion is wrong or right? Who would judge an emotion?
If the statement in your last line is to mean that we cannot act on our emotions without considering the consequences, I think that you are right – _that_ is what makes us moral beings, not our emotions per se. But I fail to see how this has anything to do with same sex mariage. Can you please clarify?
I’m sorry to say that if you think animals don’t engage in same gender sex, you’re mistaken. I’ve had pets. Guinea pigs and other such animals generally don’t care about the sex as long as there is an opening available. I’ve also come across footage on youtube of same sex animals (male lions, for example) engaging in sexual behavior while the women were away hunting, It’s not only humans and it’s definitely NOT new behavior.
Well said Melanie!!!!! @ brian- you dof!!
Thank your telling our story.
Please follow our blog http://sithole-modisane.blogspot.com/ for more
We were the first to break the story in the USA and West – The Story received a lot of attention. We chose not to elaborate on the extensive homophobia in South Africa as we saw this story as very special and a break through. We have covered anti-gay violence, corrective rape issues in SA extensively on this BLOG,as well as Holomisa and his attempts to mess with the SA Constitutional protections for LGBT people. I am sure he feared this very action on the part of gays to start to include traditional marriage. But we did not want to include details of that stuff on your special story. We do note that we realize this was a wedding between to men who are from different South African tribes, we heard Zulu and Tswana. However we emphasize tradition here in general -. It is also important to note that Traditional weddings have distinct roles for “brides” and “grooms” and that would require we chose not to cover those kind of details. The symbolism of what you two did was awesome and has profound meaning. thank you for your courage and breaking barriers.
Didn’t you read the article? A surrogate. That’s where the children will come from.
So are you saying that the biological mother won’t be important to the child’s development and identity? You can’t tell a child that they shouldn’t concern themselves with who their mother is because their 2 fathers have redefined their family to not include her. That’s not fair or scientific. Why are we pushing to eliminate the built in responsibility of child bearing that belongs to the biological parents-who are ultimately responsible for creation of the life? Can a biological father just go to court and “redefine” his family to not include a baby that he has sired? Don’t you see the confusion and mess that we are in for? Don’t we want to encourage breeders to take care of their sexual prodigy? Doesn’t this create a culture of responsibly being defined by whim rather than by responsibility and consequence of sexual behavior?
TONS of research regarding the automatic statistical disadvantage of children who are raised in broken families. TONS. 2 mothers will not change a child’s need for their biological father. 2 fathers will not change a child’s need for their biological mother. If there is a child rearing role for Gay and lesbian people, and I believe there is, then it needs to be called something different-because it is different and we need to have names for things.
Sorry but you a make no sense. Can you please try and rephrase this nonsense. What about foster children – tens of thousands in the USA system- whose own mother biological and bio fathers abuse them – throw them onto the street, etc. Just because they are bio does not make them right as parents. The worst child abiuse cases come from bio parents. That said whats wrong withnsame-sex parents? They intend to have kids- dont have them by accident. A child’s needs are met by food -shelter- clothing- education and extreme unconditional love – it matters not whethe rit is a single mom, a single dad, two moms, two dads, grandparents, aunts, or a mom and dad together. Get a grip there are different kinds of familes and as long as the criteria are met the child has an equal chance of serenity and happiness and perfect development. So call it whatever who cares? Name things? Call is loving parents no matter what or who!
There is no biological need for one’s father. Socially, maybe — but that’s a problem with society. Problems with society can be fixed.
A “broken family” is not the same thing as a family in which the parents are of the same sex. I’m not sure about the “tons” of research you refer to about children of divorce (I guess this is what you mean by broken families), but the American Academy of Paediatrics supports same-sex parenting, stating that a review of the literature found no negative affect on children. And in fact, a study published in the journal Pediatrics found that children of lesbians may actually do better than their peers in terms of emotional development, behaviour, and academic success.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Research has determined that having two loving parents of the same sex is not different than having 2 loving parents of the opposite sex. Your argument is quite useless because many adopted children never see or meet their biological parent, or mother. Children do not have to have a mother and a father to be raised in perfect happiness, with full love, and to have great childhoods to be ready as adults for an equal opportunity in life. Comparisons to kids raised by heterosexual parents, have proved that kids from gay households are equally well adjusted and in some cases much better off because they are intended and wanted children, in every instance. Tell your argument to the thousands of kids now emerging into adulthood from same-sex families – and they will laugh at you. Do yur homework and meet a few such kids and families before making such crazy assertions. I recommend this website for you – http://www.colage.org/
And what about single women which decide having a baby all alone, who do choose the genitor, and then since the moment they’re sure being pregnant they cease any kind of contact with him ?
And what about plenary adoption when kids grow up in families which are not theirs ?
And what about the place of the biological mother inside an Amish family where children don’t have one mom but two, three, or even four ?
The classical family we know his a human creation, and we’ve been told that it was the good and only one. But it’s wrong, it’s just one family model among a lot of others.
Those two guys are deeply in love with each other, they are already a family. None of them has choosen to fall in love with an other man, and nobody has the right to deny them the hapiness to have a baby. Nobody !
Children come from human eggs and sperm. In the US today a large majority are conceived and born only ‘accidentally.’ There is a way to bring preloved children into the world and this is one…SURROGACY…Just ask Ricky Martin or PEREZ HILTON or Elton John… etc etc etc.
I remember seeing a great wedding write up from an LA couple ..one a lawyer one in entertainment.. who had lovely twin 3 mo old daughters that June 2008 when they could be married in California.
Just like all adoptive parents, parents by surrogacy LOVE and can afford their children.. So very many in US cannot do any of those for their ‘accidental’ children.
As long as I’m not involved in such, its ok for me – or should I say for them.
Having kids do not come form the Animals and there are a lot of children who do not have parents and can be adopted by either.
Um. Dolphins are very definitely bisexual. They have a -lot- of sex for recreation. They don’t even usually travel in co-ed pods.
If a gay couple want children, they adopt them, besides I have seen many video clips of same sex animals having sex with each other. So, you see it is in the animal kingdom as well, not just the human world.
Actually Brian I think you’ll find you are wrong. Plenty of other animals exhibit homosexuality:
Oh Congratulations to them… and Thanks for making this so sharable…Sent it everywhere! …oh not quite, just thought of a few more good contacts. PS Sent join to group above and fr request to admin.
I am in awe of this wedding and most proud of my african brothers. Congratulations to both of them. Africa will arise and become inclusive. We thank God for South Africa. it is my hope that the taboo of same sex would disappear through acceptance and boldness of many same gender loving people, our friends, families and communities.
Same-sex marriage is an injustice, a tyrannical ploy being perpetrated upon our society, the pernicious consequences of which are simply mocked and laughed at by its supporters. Ignorance and prejudice have taken the place of knowledge and reason. Caprice and passion substituted for prudence and virtue. The happiness of society, the good of all families, and the welfare of mankind fall victim to the injustice of selfish love, which calculates every thing for itself while taking no notice of a child’s best interest or the public advantage of the government promoting ONLY the traditional family.
In the eyes of a child, same-sex marriage appears adulterous by nature. Someone is not present in his/her home who is his/her true mother or father. No good can come from adultery, only broken homes and broken hearts. At best, an adoptive virtuous heterosexual man and woman can soften the evil sustained by children of adultery, but same-sex proponents want their adulterous families to be considered normal and “equal” to a monogamous heterosexual marriage — which study after study has proven to be the best environment for child-rearing. There is simply no virtue in ignorance, or in denying truth.
Here are two truths regarding marriage: (1) A man creating a family with another man is not equal to creating a family with a woman, and (2) denying children parents of both genders at home is an objective evil. Kids need and yearn for both.
Same-sex marriage in unconformable to the state of a rational social being, it is defective in principle, and has ONLY a deceitful appearance to young and old because it denies Natural Law. All babies grow up to eventually figure out that it takes a man and a woman to bring a new life into the world.
At school, those kids who have two mothers or two fathers will be different, and the other children will notice that the child of a same-sex couple is different in many ways. Besides the obvious exclusion of either a mother or a father at home, a same-sex-marriage child is deprived of one necessary gender role model at home, and will undoubtedly interact differently than other children of his/her gender, and especially with regards to interacting with the opposite sex of his/her same-sex parents. It is without a doubt that these children will be recognized to be different by the children who have a mother and a father at home, and especially when they have both of their biological parents at home.
In order to protect the child of a same-sex marriage from any perceived harassment, that child will become a special protected class in the eyes of the government. School officials will have to punish and “re-educate” any child who “offends” the protected-class child by simply expressing that it is strange that the child of the same-sex marriage is missing a mother or a father, or that the child acts in a manner unusual to his gender contemporaries.
This unjust punishment to subvert the natural understanding of children is evidence enough that same-sex families do not follow core principles of Natural Law, and because same-sex marriage defies Natural Law, pernicious consequences will inevitably happen. To punish a child for saying what he knows is true (all children have a mother and a father) is nothing less than a tyrannical oppression to children who instinctively rely upon Nature’s Laws to help them understand life and natural consequences. Children will be coerced to accept as “natural” what are unnatural behaviors, and this challenge to their instinctual knowledge of right and wrong will result in confusion. A morally-confused child is more susceptible to evil and perversion than one who is confident in his knowledge of right and wrong. Evil-doers know this, and will thrive in a society that indoctrinates its children to see no inherent evil in disregarding Natural Law. Alas, those who support same-sex marriage have apparently fallen too far into the depravity of tolerating licentiousness themselves to realize or acknowledge the harm and injustice same-sex marriage imposes upon our children and thus our society. Society institutionalizes marriage to enforce the natural rights and responsibilities of the organic family unit.
Marriage was instituted to protect the Natural Rights of children. Same-sex marriage ignores nature and tramples those rights in the name of “equality”.
Natural Law? Basis in Nature, you say? Very interesting…
It’s only unusual because it has been such a repressed behavior in our more recent collective memory. You sound like someone who is scared to do anything different from the status quo. Expressing your opinion in matter-of-fact language does not actually make it fact.
I pity you and your narrow view of love.
I agree that children have a natural right to a permanent biological family.
It’s very telling that you agree with this Comment, GiantsWillFall, since Jean-Jacques Burlamaqui wrote The Principles of Natural Law and The Principles of Politic Law in 1748. We have evolved as society since then.
FragileGiants, what specifically is the need for a distinction between a biological family and a loving one? Many children are born to people who didn’t want children, only sex. Their lives might be vastly improved by removal from their biological parents, and placement with loving ones. And there are dozens of factors more important than the sex of this loving family.
I’m surprised that the words injustice, ignorance, and prejudice are in your argument at all. I suggest you look them up and try again.
You clearly do not understand the difference between sex and sexuality and hence you relate adultery and homosexuality. Again go back, read and understand that being gay is not sex. It is sexuality. Big difference. Guess who’s the perveted conspiracy theorist here? These one sided studies you write of hold no water whatsoever. Children yearn for a loving family which homosexual families have been providing for some time now. I and many others grew under up a single parent family which proved to be just as loving and disciplined as other heterosexual families if not better. Have you seen the divorce rate stats recently? Is the continuous rise of heterosexual relationships break down a direct result of same sex marriage then? Your narrow minded view of what constitutes a well rounded family in today’s evolving society is the only thing that is evil. Children are not born with prejudice, they learn it.
Hulka78, thank you for commenting on this. I know many many such same-sex families and have read the research. You are correct same-sex parents intend their children- and go to great lengths to adopt or have them biologically. I have yet to see a single case of abuse or even relative numbers to the amount of child abuse that occurs in heterosexual families.
u are ridiculous…
Xandark, if you have nothing to add to the discussion, silence is golden. Sniping is just stupid — especially when you don’t make it clear whom you are insulting.
Natural law, which is essentially 13th Century neo-Aristotelian philosophy, likely isn’t the last word on what is, or is not, natural.There is not such thing as “unnatural” behavior. The “unnatural” is the “impossible.” To label all the law abiding, tax paying responsible adults of a minority group as “unnatural” is to callously deny their humanity and human dignity. Why would you do that?
Your “truths” are self serving distortions, and are only “truths” to you.
In any case, you’re writing like the suit and tie racists of my youth. Just substitute “mixed-race” for “same-sex” and you’ll be instantly transported back fifty-sixty years….and I’m old enough, alas, to have heard it all before.
“At school, those kids who have a white mother and a black father will be different, and the other children will notice that the child of a mixed-racecouple is different in many ways….etc.
The children of “mixed race” children will be rejected by their peers and grow up to be miserable, sickly failures…like the President of the United States. Not to mention the “tragic mixed race” children I know who are Federal Sheriffs, executives, supervisors, in graduate school or have aced their bar exam.
Back then, conservatives in my part of the world had invented this thing called the “sin of miscegenation.” They had dozens of alleged, inerrant Bible “proof texts.” Those proof texts that “proved” that God hates race mixing,” can no longer be found in our Bibles, because they had nothing to do with the ever more dubious modern-era social construct of “race.” I predict that the same will happen to the ever more dubious modern-era social construct of “homosexuality.”
All children do have a biological mother and father, but what all children need are loving parents. Gay people can be, and are, those loving parents.
WOW..Jean-Jacques Burlamaqui, you are extremely misguided. I am a woman and I have 5 gorgeous, smart, funny, wonderful children and 2 perfect grandsons.
I was raised strict Roman Catholic, so I was taught you get married and have kids. I always knew I didn’t like guys “that way”, but in an Irish/Italian Roman Catholic family how I felt didn’t matter.
TWO (2) ex husbands and 1 dead husband by the time I was 30 proved I just could not be with a man in that way. I love my kids more then my own life, but they were the only good things that came of those marriages.
I met my wife, yes I said wife (a same sex marriage, oh no) and have been happier with her then I could ever have imagined.
My kids love her. The only way they treat other kids different is that they have learned bigotry and hate are wrong. If anything it has made them better people. My oldest 2 daughters both have husbands and each have a child. So, obviously, they did NOT learn to treat men differently.
As for the “unnatural behaviors”, what is unnatural about 2 people in love getting married and having children? You know that the majority of mammals do not practice monogomy as we force our selves to do, don’ t you? You also know that most of the mammals are bi-sexual, don’t you? If anything, by your logic (and no I don’t believe this, but I’m using your logic here) marriage and monogomy are the unnatural behaviors.
So please, your hate and bigotry is not even logical. I understand people fear what they don’t understand and hate the fear, so they end up hating what they don’t understand. Unfortunately, that is what we were all taught by our straight parents.
I love my mother and my father. But, I told them, and am now telling you, “If you don’t like same sex couples, tell all the straight couples to stop having gay kids”.
Thanks Colleen for sharing here. It reminds me of my own story which i wrote briefly in an article after I sent my letter to Rebecca Kadaga the Ugandan speaker who wants to pass The Kill the Gays Bill.
“When I was in my early twenties I realized that I was a lesbian. I tried marriage to a man, but I was very unhappy because I was not attracted to him. We never had children together.
When I truly fell in love, it was later in life and it was with a woman. I was so happy I wanted to make a family. So I have two daughters. My first born was adopted as an infant from an orphanage in Vietnam. She is now 15 and a happy well adjusted, a caring and loving human being, who is a great sports person and gets A’s at school. My second born is a birth child and we were lucky to get a sperm donor from a local sperm bank here in San Francisco. This child is a shining light to our entire family. She carries the genes of her ancestors , some of whom died in the Holocaust in Germany. We are so proud to have been able to reproduce……. read more http://oblogdeeoblogda.me/2012/11/29/a-lesbians-statement-to-ugandas-parliament-and-speaker-kadaga/
So many words for saying nothing !
Before giving to the world all ur theories, go to people who grew up into an homosexual family and have a talk with them. U’ll be very surprised to hear what they’ll tell u about their childhood and their teen years, about all the love they’ve got, and how balanced they are. But the most important thing, and probably that would be a real shock for u, most of them are not gays. Because it seems that u’ve forgotten a “detail” : gays, male and female, most of them were born and raised in a straight family !
(FYI, the mariage the u defends has been established under the name of Code Napoleon. He wasn’t create to defend the rights of the kids but to be certain that women couldn’t have any rights without the approbation of their husband, and that illigitimate kids – better known like “the bastards” – couldn’t pretend to get any part of the possession of their genitors.)
I love how people always bring up procreation when trying to defend marriage, like the only reason you marry someone is procreation and love has nothing to do with it. lol i think all people who use this defense should have to marry solely based on procreation, not attraction, not compatibility, or anything else…just match you up with anyone of the opposite sex so you can reproduce. They love and care for each other so I wish them all the best.
April 4, 2013 marked 45 years after Martin Luther King’s assassination. During King’s time, blacks were an inferior race. King, like other religious leaders had a choice – protect the status quo or change it. He chose the latter, and it cost his life. His name is now celebrated, in his time, however, his fellow pastors where his vicious critics. His “Letter from Birmingham Jail” was a response to his critics who called his activities “unwise and untimely.” “In every situation,” so Dr. King wrote, “We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”
Alas the discrimination against blacks was justified with selected versus from the Bible. I had just attended a Church service dedicated to Dr. King, when I read Evangelical Fellowship of Zambia, Executive Director, Pukuta Mwanza’s position on homosexuality. At the risk of being called all sorts of names, I want to respond to his position.
Friends, gays may be sinners but they are humans with rights
Rev Mwanza claimed that homosexuality is against “fundamental Christian values, as well as African and traditional beliefs and practices,” and that democracy means the “interest of the majority must supersede those of the minority.” I think this argument is flawed. Christian and African values, like all values, change over time. By the way, does democracy mean denial of minority rights? Should Muslim be banned or Bemba become the official language simply because the majority of Zambians identifies as Bemba? From Nazi German to Rwanda, we have seen how such thinking can destroy a nation and people’s lives.
The European Union is not promoting homosexuality but asking us to respect the humanity of sexual minorities – they are humans created in the image of God. In December 2012, I met a Zambian at the United Nations. We spent days speaking and sharing meals until he asked me – “Kapya, do you know that I am a woman?” My answer was, “no way!” He then showed me his passport, and for sure, he was a woman. He followed it with another question, “Do you know what it means for me to live in Zambia. I can’t use male toilets and neither can I use female ones without being accompanied by friends.”
That encounter took me back to the South African Olympic medalist, Caster Semenya – whose gender was contested and raised so much solidarity across Africa. Then I remembered one ZNS officer in Luamfumu, Mansa during the 1980s. We called her Christine cibula mabele (Christine without breast). Everything about her was male and she would cry aloud, asking why God created her a woman when she was a man. All these events led to question whether God makes mistakes after all.
African gays will not get their rights without a fight – and all those who understand their plight will stand with them until their rights are realized.
I believe God does not make mistakes – but we, the people do. Just as discrimination of lepers, crippled, blind persons, blacks, women, and slaves was justified, today we still define who fits our description of the “natural” order of things. Fundamental values change with knowledge and experiences. Not long ago, twins were treated as evil. Kids whose top teeth came out first were killed – finkula. Today, we look back and wonder what our people were thinking. Yet in those days, such actions were defended as fundamental African values.
We have laws against homosexuality and we hold as “African.” The truth is, they are products of colonial rule and Christianity. In fact, early missionary writings show that Europeans were traumatized when Africans considered homosexuality amoral.
I am aware that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 reads, ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death.” In the New Testament, Romans 1:24 -27 is often used to justify our opposition to homosexuality. But Leviticus 19:19 also reads: ‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” Leviticus 19: 27 is more interesting, “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.” Letivicus 20:27, adds, ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death,’ while verse 10 says, “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife — both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.” Well, if you know your Bible, you will understand that Jesus confronted this verse in John 8:1-11 by appealing to peoples’ consciences about adultery- anyone without sin should stone her. You know the rest. Paul’s letters are also clear – women are inferior to men and must remain silent – after all they sinned. As for slaves, they must obey their masters.
I believe the Bible is God’s word, but human knowledge and context affect how we apply and interpret it. I guess the Rev. Mwanza shaves and cuts his hair. He also wears clothes made from two kinds of materials and will never justify slavery or killing of children who disobey their parents. He would not support executing n’gangas or those caught in adultery even when the Bible says so. Under Sharia law, for example, women are stoned to death for adultery – and we Christians oppose such laws as inhumane due to our conviction that every human being, regardless of what s/he has done or become, is sacred before God.
I know that gay issues are emotional but let us face it – gays have been part of human history. In his Zondervan Press published book, African Christian Ethics, Samuel Waje Kunhiyop, Nigerian professor at South African Theological Seminary – which is an Evangelical college, argues that it is factually false to claim Africa had no gays. On page 304, he gives an example of yan daudu (gays) who paraded the streets annually as late as the 1970s in Nigeria. In Uganda, Kabaka Mwanga was gay long before Christianity and he is the reason we have African martyrs of Uganda – they were killed for refusing to have sex with their King upon conversion to Christianity.
Friends, gays may be sinners but they are humans with rights. I may believe drunkards will go to hell and that women are inferior to men but that does not justify the denial of their rights. I may consider smoking evil but to persecute those who smoke is wrong. Nobody is promoting homosexuality – we have gays in our midst. They may be hiding but they are our brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, friends and workmates. They attend church, sing in our choirs, tithe and in some cases they are our pastors and priests. But they also cry, bleed and die.
Please let us live to disagree but never sacrifice our common humanity. African gays will not get their rights without a fight – and all those who understand their plight will stand with them until their rights are realized. As for now, let us preach love for God is love. Judgment belongs to God – who will punish those who shave, cut their hair, mix colors, allow women to speak, eat pork, and of course drink and smoke. No wonder we are saved by grace!
Thank you for taking the time. Well said. The Bible has been grossly misinterpreted by those who use it to mask their fear and then use it to perpetuate and justify hate.
Call it something different. Marriage is used to identify lineage, union and biological responsibility. There is not a single past culture that called a homosexual relationships marriage. Not one. Homosexuals are different form straight people so it stands to follow that homosexual relationships are different than heterosexual relationships. What is wrong with having different names for different things? We have the term “adoption” for the adoption relationship and it’s totally non-controversial.
My goodness why should families who have same-gender parents have to subject their children to apartheid? If any law is different or separate in its treatment for any couple or any family then it is the same as apartheid. Why should it not be called marriage if you make a comittment and apply the same laws to the couple – tax laws, support laws, custody laws, divorce laws, housing laws, pension laws. Why should same-gender couples and the families not benefit equally? Show me the harm to any other person’s life or marriage that would be caused byn the certainty of a commitment by a gay couple that is also protected by the law. All they are sharing is the right to the same laws. WHy shoud gay families be reduced to second class citizens just because you and some others are prejudiced against equality and equal treatment for all? How dare you suggest that homosexual are different from anyone else. You may as well say black people are different from white people and that there should nt be inter arriage. They used the same argument to try and keep blacks and white apart during the apartheid years of South Africa. Gay relationships are exactly the same as straight relationships and they deserve equal treatment.
So, barren women, sterile men — they shouldn’t be allowed to be Married, because they cannot fulfill their “biological responsibility”? And you’re completely wrong. Native American Cultures have recognized same-sex unions -since inception-.
Sanex, You are wrong in invoking MLK Jr. in your statement. He was not a supporter of gay rights. Just watch the documentary about Bayard Rustin “Brother Outsider” and the advice MLK Jr. wrote in Ebony Magazine. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/what-did-mlk-think-about-gay-people/
I agree with you Think Bot, why is it that the typical excuse people often use above is the aspect of procreation when justifying their need same sex relations not to be upheld nor respected, if you are heterosexual be heterosexual, no body is forcing you to cross over, but lets not force our own preconceived notion of what we think or feel is right, a Human Right is a human right, you may not like the fact that some on me is gay but you have to respect my rights just as we have to respect the rights of the the parties above’s sole desire was to wed and be happy with there lives , there are so many problems and serious matters out there that we should focus our energies on such as improving our economies,m reducing poverty, equal access to health etc…..matters of con-sexual sexual relations are a private matter, you may have your statistic as to why you think gay rights or in the long run gay marriage shouldn’t be respected my question is why does it bother people so much two men or women can actually fall in love with one another and even raise better kids? Let this two wonderful souls above be happy with there lives, after all whether you haters like it or not they are whom they are, and that will not affect nor change the price of bread in town so get over it and live your own lives. wishing the newly weds many happy moments together, with love from Zambia.
Congratulations Tshepo and Thoba! I wish a lifetime of happiness, security and health. So proud of you. Your videos are beautiful. I am engaged to an incredible guy. We will marry as soon as the US catches up with South Africa.
So many responses, read them all. Clearly many of the posters are very clever, quite intelligent but still so narrow in their thought process. Seems many of you think being gay is a choice? I grew up in a tiny town in ND. I knew no gay people. My parents knew one. Mother made certain he was never around my Father. I heard her complain, “he always flirts with Robert!” Dad was oblivious Iam sure. Mom was careful about her language but the bigotry was there. That was my only indoctrination into knowing who I was? I thought I was insane, how could it be I wanted to kiss a boy? I pretended to be straight until I was 21 years old. In college I met gay people, I think. It was the 70’s and in ND no one talked about being gay. I took myself to therapy. I took myself to therapy in ND, in AZ and NV and now in ID. Years ago I accepted myself, really knew myself and absolutely know, I was born gay! You intelligent, well read, angry people can continue to throw your hate towards me. I am bullet proof. You don’t hurt me, you hurt the gay kids out there, your words kill some. Please spend less time on anger and more on understanding My two cents, thanks for reading. Let us all do something nice for someone this week.
I just met a very, very homophobic Zulu guy. And the funny thing is, he’s staying at a Gay Shelter.
Maby I should show him this News
I’m sure he ll “LOVE” it. Lol
Happy news. This couple showed some good difference :D
Thanks Sanex that was very educational….educational indeed
I like this post but it’s a pity that I hate gay marriage bcoz it’s unnatural.
Try and find some love in your heart bro
It would be more honest to say that u hate gay people, or that you hate marriage, instead of saying that u hate gay marriage.
A marriage is anything else but two people who needs that the love their share is recognized, no matter their sex. And being gay is anything else but someone who feels love for someone else of the same gender.
We are like anybody else, we are ur co-worker, ur boss, ur neighbor, ur brother, ur sister, ur father, or ur mother. And since we have the same duties than anybody else we’re simply expecting all around the world to get the same rights eventually.
“South Africa is a leader in the world of equality, enjoying an all inclusive constitution, where same-sex marriage is legal and discrimination against LGBTI people outlawed.”
I am very happy to hear these two young men were able to get married in the way they wished.
HOWEVER, it hurts my brain that you would declare South Africa a “leader in the world of equality”. LGBT people are still killed, and very brutally, just for their identities. Rape is an epidemic in the country, with even the president proudly admitting to it. Many women lead very circumscribed lives as a result of physical danger and limited social roles. And racism cripples life opportunities for many of the black citizens. Have you ever read interviews with white South Africans about how they think of their black fellow citizens? Or contemplated the staggering wealth disparities?
It is a common mistake to assume that “legal” equality means that social ills have evaporated. Just because the law says something is illegal, doesn’t mean discrimination, even of the most hateful, brutal kind, doesn’t continue. Only grassroots social change can actually produce a reality of true justice & equality.
THIS IS AMAZING!!! HAPPY LIFE TO BOTH, AND TO NEW AFRICA! LOVE
Thanks for publishing this – another great step in the right common-sense direction!
Congratulations to the happy couple. ALL gay people are your ancestors!
I am quite glad about all the positive remarks left here about this couple’s marriage. I live in Canada now, and we also have laws in place that protect its citizens, and that also give them the rights to many different things including same sex marriage. The most important thing here to remember is that LOVE is a wonderful thing. Being able to express your love for another person is also a wonderful thing. The fact that you are straight, bi, or gay shouldn’t matter one bit. I’m a gay man. I am capable of love just like anyone else. My children love me, because I am their father. Being a gay doesn’t change that fact. I do love another man, and we are getting married this year. I am thankful that its become common place in Canada, because the expression of my love doesn’t need to be written in any history book.
This is great news for South Africans :) Anybody actually, that doesn’t discriminate
My heart leaps for joy at the sight of Tshepo and Thoba marrying each other and being included in their families’ wider circles of love. I also take joy from seeing them incorporate their ancestral cultures into the ceremony. They both seem like fine young men. As they say in Spanish “Que sean felices y coman perdices” — May they be happy and eat partridges — it means that they should enjoy a long and happy marriage in good health.
Scott it gave meaning to my world. the fact that they could and they did! Having been raised there and lived through apartheid – it made me jump for joy. What a lesson to the world.
Yay! So happy for them and South Africa! Where’s the US with gay marriage? Come on, US!
So sorry to see that these comment threads always seem to devolve into vitriole. I thought it was so beautiful to see these guys sealing their relationship–and to see how accepting their families were. One day people this will be normal, but it is still a beautiful thing to see people expressing love in the face of hatred and prejudice. Thank you for sharing this!
Thanks Erika, We moderate comments and I do not let through the ones that use bad language or express threats or those which are extremely hateful. I received less of those I am happy to say than i the past, only censoring about 3. Its a tough choice to put any of the anti gay ones up at all, but I believe its an important educational tool – to allow others to comment on the ignorance….. hopefully some will learn from it. We must keep educating. Tho admittedly sometimes my own answers get a bit snarky when I see pure stupidity and lack of logical reasoning.
To me everything is right ,you can accept or ignore, base on your religion,culture, mind and society settings. Gay life is full of funs ? caring, loving, sharing to mention but few. I’ m who Iam nobody can change me, I’m GAY
Im so exciting to hear that kudós to the new wedded couple, but Nigerian gay are suffering so called Law where corruption ravange everywhere. we practise Gay secretly in Nigeria
while this is a wonderful story, it is not fair to make it read like such a propaganda piece for south africa. you praise the country from the get go about being a world leader in equality but this is not fair to airbrush over the deep seated social problems in this country. only very recently there have been huge strikes by miners which resulted in the violent police forces murdering many protesting workers trying to get better working rights. not to take away from this lovely story but try and focus on the specifics and not make it into a sweeping generalised piece. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/06/south-africa-mine-massacre-marikana
Goodness – one nice article in a sea of criticism. read this BLOG!!! Full of critique about homophobia, violence, corruption, rape and something nice happens and I report it positively and you belch at me? Give us a break. No one reads in isolation and if they do too bad. But explore this BLOG before you think that for one second I only priase South afirca. This couples deserves the kuddos and thats what this about. History making hugs!
Ok I don’t agree with ssm, but that’s my opinion that I’m entitled too in the same way that homosexuals & lesbians are entitled to theirs. I do think though that the Stories heading “BREAKING GROUND IN SOUTH AFRICA WITH A TRADITIONAL ZULU GAY WEDDING” is wrong, this is South Africa & there is nothing traditional about a Zulu gay wedding. I live in KZN where predominantly Zulu people live and the truth is if these guys were to announce themselves in a rural area, they would not be accepted at all. In fact I would fear for their safety.
As a few people have already posted, there are far more pressing issues for us as a country to deal with, rape, crime HIV to name a few. Ssm must get in line behind these vicious social injustices.
David we cover these negative and horrible issues on this BLOG often. Take a read. Sorry you are reading this in isolation. However yu are right about homophobia in Townships and no one has said that this means its going to suddenly be a picnic for gays and LGBTI in South Africa. However we give credit where credit is due. This is a “breakthrough” and a sign that there is HOPE. Just like the article says. Seeing the family come out for this couple is a great accomplishment in the context. If it were not for the rampant homophobia and violence in SA this article and the bravery of the couple would have had less meaning and impact! Of course the “traditional” wedding is not exactly so. In traditional Zulu weddings a Tswana partner may be less acceptable and it is the groom family that gives the bride the pay/gift. This is symbolic and hence the excitement. So calm down everyone and lets look at this for what it is. Tow brave gay men making a statement and breaking ground. Maybe, like the article says, this could lead to change. It is awesome!
This is wonderful to see. Good for them.
This is off-topic, but I just wonder how easy it is to adopt (and if it’s possible for same-sex couples) in South Africa… I visited several orphanages in Africa and there are so many children languishing away in them, who really need a loving family. Perhaps surrogacy is not the only option.
good point. I am not up on adoption laws or stats in South Africa, however I can say that the Consitution does not allow people to discriminate against gays (LGBTI) in SA>
FOR GAYS ONLY: Jesus predicted …… C U T
Hey Irv This is Melanie Nathan the Author here – as you will see I have not published – Ihave censored your comment. I will make you a deal though – have the courage / balls to put your real name onto the comment and I will be happy to post it. Deal?
What a beautiful couple, well done to both of them and congratulations
Reblogged this on Ramblings of a Brown- Eyed Dyke.
There are a few issues here that I want to comment on. Number one YES monogamy is a relatively new concept and one of the main reasons it was “promoted” came from the Middle Ages when the Church wanted to “out populate” the non religious factions. So they made it a sin of indecency and afterwards never repealed it even when overpopulation was obvious. The main reason was because it then became a way of controlling people. You control sex then you control people. And last time I checked masturbation was also on that list along with premarital sex. So I guess there could be no way that anyone making remarks against has indulged in any of those types of activities. Homosexuality does exist in the animal kingdom. Granted its not as prevalent as “standard” couplings but it does exist. Look it up.
I love this, the fact that people are not afraid of breaking away from cultural discrimination and traditional limitations. Wow, people can be so ugly toward those who want to live a different life that doesn’t blend with societal norms. People are such unique beings, created with freedom of will, of thought, we were essentially created to be free not imprisoned by normalcy.
As a South African I am so excited that people are making a stand once again in defiance to what society defines as “normal”.
There is no doubt that procreation is part of marriage as the two young men said they plan to have children of their own. If their union is a complete marriage why should they talk of adopting children. Are they setting their eyes to adopt children from other such unions or their opposite. Whats traditional about the union? Is it a Zulu traditional cultural practice for two men to be in such a union. Reference was made to Tshaka- did he allow such during his time. True, culture is never static, but it is up to you to embrace the positives not negatives. Wake-up Africa.
And what exactly is the point you are making? TRadition never ends and adapts according to context and time. Tradition evolves and is created. Their wedding was based on Zulu Culture. They followed the procedure. The Lobola – e.g. usually given by groom to bride – dowry and gifting. here the grooms families adapted the cultural norm and each gave gifts to the other. Wake up Africa indeed its 2013!
Lots of issues are being confused with established Zulu culture. Am glad that the wedding ‘adapted’ Zulu culture. Clearly, the emergent culture was a hybrid of Zulu and X. Africa is generally proud that the Zulu are among the highly traditional and cultural societies. There is no doubt that this same culture has borrowed some positive aspects from other cultures. This is reasonable. It has become fashionable with some people to do the unfashionable – all this is defended in the name of human rights or any such thing. Long live the Zulu culture
I like it im also gay 17yrs